Affection vs pack leader

ORIGINAL: labcrab

Just so we're clear... Lilea - you have a dog that was essentially bred to do nothing but sit on laps, Honey (the OP's dog) is an English Shepherd. 

My point was that its ok to let her dog sit on her lap.  Are you saying its not ok just because it wasnt bred to do just that? 
Another thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post.  If my dog brings me a toy wanting to play and I feel like it then yes I play with her.  Why should I specifically not play with her when she asks?  Just because I didn't happen to think of it first?  Silly.  Making her sit first or something is a good idea though.
ETA: just so we are extra clear, my pup is a pug/shih tzu mix.

ORIGINAL: Tankstar

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Some DON'Ts.....
Don't take his food away while he is eating.
Don't "roll" or "pin" him.
Don't shout at or slap him.
Don't "stare him out"
[color=#ff0000]Don't growl at him
[/color]Don't grab, pull or shove him to where you want to be.  Force is not necessary and is counter productive.  A true leader leads because his followers want  to follow, not because they have been forced into it.  A true leader doesn't stoop to indulge in petty physical confrontations.


It's all pretty basic, common sense stuff when you think about it - and whether he sits in your lap or not pales into insignificance beside it.

I'm going to have to dissagree with a few of these donts (the ones in red) A stare down (untilt he dog looks away) makes you the bigger dog, same as rolling them on their back. I would very muhc like to say taking a dogs food away is good, that way they will not be food aggressive or toy aggressive. growl at him I think goes with the stare down and roll over.

I have done all of these with my dog. He is a very well trained dog now. I'm glad I taught him not to prtect his food. If I hadnt a little 3 year old upstairs would have lost her hand this morning, when he was eating and she decided to grab his ear and grab a handfull of his food (She is visiting this morning, not my kid, or any one in my houses kid. She dosnt have a dog, so dont know how to act around them)

While I can appreciate some people want to make sure their dog is not food aggressive, there are ways to do this which don't involve taking his dinner away.  (Go to the Training Section, Everything Else and "Should dogs be bothered while eating" for more info and debate on this subject)  This is more likely to create a guardy dog than anything else.  If he has the right temperament, it will turn out OK (as it has with you)  But it's wrong to advise newbies to do this.  Try it on the wrong dog and it will end in disaster.  I'm sorry, I've seen too many dogs surrendered to shelters or PTS because of people not taking care with this issue.

WRT the other three you highlighted, I am not going to argue this point here.  But I advise you to go to the Behaviour section, Everything Else and Lupomorphising.  Some interesting points being raised on why you shouldn't see your dog as a wolf from a behavioural point of view and why you should take care when trying to "speak dog" to him.  Some of what you are advising could be dangerous if used on the wrong dog or by an inexperienced owner - be careful.
 
PS don't even get me started on the "alpha roll" in all its various guises.  If a dog lets you do this, the chances are he is placid enough in his nature that you didn't need to do it, a less confrontational method would have worked as well if not better.  If however he is of a volatile enough nature, then make sure you don't value your face too much before you try it.  Do some research on this subject.  There has been no research that I can find that turns it back around and says its a good thing since it was discredited and refuted.

ORIGINAL: Lilea

ORIGINAL: labcrab

Just so we're clear... Lilea - you have a dog that was essentially bred to do nothing but sit on laps, Honey (the OP's dog) is an English Shepherd. 

My point was that its ok to let her dog sit on her lap.  Are you saying its not ok just because it wasnt bred to do just that? 
Another thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post.  If my dog brings me a toy wanting to play and I feel like it then yes I play with her.  Why should I specifically not play with her when she asks?  Just because I didn't happen to think of it first?  Silly.  Making her sit first or something is a good idea though.
ETA: just so we are extra clear, my pup is a pug/shih tzu mix.

 
Sorry for being unclear!  I'm just pointing out that you have a small lap dog and that your approach may not be appropriate for a medium/large sized working dog.  English Shepherds as I understand, are a quite an intense herding breed and the type that DO need to live in an NILIF household.  Great family dogs, IF they have strong, confident leadership and a job to do.  You may think it is "silly" to have rules such as "only the human instigates play" but these type of rules are necessary if you have a dog that will potentially challenge your position.  I mean, ideally - all dogs would receive adequate training to assure order in the household - but let's face it - small, untrained dogs do not pose the same potential problem as large, untrained dogs. 

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

yes, you should train your dog to not resource guard, but taking the dog's food away is NOT how you do that. In fact, taking your dogs food away can create a serious resource guarding problem with many dogs-- he thinks you may take his food away, so he fights to keep it.  You should instead teach the dog to relax when people approach him while he is eating by teaching him you are NOT going to take it away-- in fact, you approaching while he is eating will often lead to you sprinkling yummy treats on his food. Now he wants you to approach him while eating.

 
I dont think I put my wording right. I dont take away food, but I do put my hand n it and pet him while he is eating, so he wont attack any one if he is eating. I have taken it away, maybe to add more or somthing. He is never worried about lossing his food as he is a grazer  I put in his amount he should have for the dya, and it takes him all day to it eat. So its not like he gets a cup, then pounds it. S he is never worried about it going missing.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

ORIGINAL: Tankstar

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Some DON'Ts.....
Don't take his food away while he is eating.
Don't "roll" or "pin" him.
Don't shout at or slap him.
Don't "stare him out"
[color=#ff0000]Don't growl at him
[/color]Don't grab, pull or shove him to where you want to be.  Force is not necessary and is counter productive.  A true leader leads because his followers want  to follow, not because they have been forced into it.  A true leader doesn't stoop to indulge in petty physical confrontations.


It's all pretty basic, common sense stuff when you think about it - and whether he sits in your lap or not pales into insignificance beside it.

I'm going to have to dissagree with a few of these donts (the ones in red) A stare down (untilt he dog looks away) makes you the bigger dog, same as rolling them on their back. I would very muhc like to say taking a dogs food away is good, that way they will not be food aggressive or toy aggressive. growl at him I think goes with the stare down and roll over.

I have done all of these with my dog. He is a very well trained dog now. I'm glad I taught him not to prtect his food. If I hadnt a little 3 year old upstairs would have lost her hand this morning, when he was eating and she decided to grab his ear and grab a handfull of his food (She is visiting this morning, not my kid, or any one in my houses kid. She dosnt have a dog, so dont know how to act around them)

While I can appreciate some people want to make sure their dog is not food aggressive, there are ways to do this which don't involve taking his dinner away.  (Go to the Training Section, Everything Else and "Should dogs be bothered while eating" for more info and debate on this subject)  This is more likely to create a guardy dog than anything else.  If he has the right temperament, it will turn out OK (as it has with you)  But it's wrong to advise newbies to do this.  Try it on the wrong dog and it will end in disaster.  I'm sorry, I've seen too many dogs surrendered to shelters or PTS because of people not taking care with this issue.

WRT the other three you highlighted, I am not going to argue this point here.  But I advise you to go to the Behaviour section, Everything Else and Lupomorphising.  Some interesting points being raised on why you shouldn't see your dog as a wolf from a behavioural point of view and why you should take care when trying to "speak dog" to him.  Some of what you are advising could be dangerous if used on the wrong dog or by an inexperienced owner - be careful.

PS don't even get me started on the "alpha roll" in all its various guises.  If a dog lets you do this, the chances are he is placid enough in his nature that you didn't need to do it, a less confrontational method would have worked as well if not better.  If however he is of a volatile enough nature, then make sure you don't value your face too much before you try it.  Do some research on this subject.  There has been no research that I can find that turns it back around and says its a good thing since it was discredited and refuted.

 
I have lived with 5 differnt dogs, I was raised with dogs. All of our dogs have been trained the same way, all differnt breeds of dogs. And none of them turn out bad and guardy becuase we put our hands in their food, or I stare them down. I dont do it from a old age, I do it from day one at 8 weeks old. They will learn. I understand the OP is a new dog owner, so maybe it would be better for her to just go byt he basics. But I belive you should always be alpha dog.

ORIGINAL: Tankstar

He is never worried about lossing his food as he is a grazer  I put in his amount he should have for the dya, and it takes him all day to it eat. So its not like he gets a cup, then pounds it. S he is never worried about it going missing.

 
And this is highly relevant - a dog who is fed set mealtimes only gets one shot at it and is more likely to be keen to hang on to it.  On the other hand, a number of the dogs I've seen with the problem were "grazers".  They would wait for someone to approach the bowl and then run over to guard it.  I believe free feeding undermines NILIF and feeding at set times communicates leadership without the need for any confrontation - you can easily make him work for his food and its clear to him you are in control of this most vital resource.  Grazers get to choose when they eat and how much - they control the resource themselves.
 

But I belive you should always be alpha dog

 
You should be a benevolent leader.  You cannot be an "alpha dog" because you are not a dog.  The dog understands you are his leader because you control all resources, not because you "speak dog" to him.  This is not necessary and can be confusing (for dog and human!) or even dangerous.

ORIGINAL: labcrab

ORIGINAL: Lilea

ORIGINAL: labcrab

Just so we're clear... Lilea - you have a dog that was essentially bred to do nothing but sit on laps, Honey (the OP's dog) is an English Shepherd. 

My point was that its ok to let her dog sit on her lap.  Are you saying its not ok just because it wasnt bred to do just that? 
Another thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post.  If my dog brings me a toy wanting to play and I feel like it then yes I play with her.  Why should I specifically not play with her when she asks?  Just because I didn't happen to think of it first?  Silly.  Making her sit first or something is a good idea though.
ETA: just so we are extra clear, my pup is a pug/shih tzu mix.

Sorry for being unclear!  I'm just pointing out that you have a small lap dog and that your approach may not be appropriate for a medium/large sized working dog.  English Shepherds as I understand, are a quite an intense herding breed and the type that DO need to live in an NILIF household.  Great family dogs, IF they have strong, confident leadership and a job to do.  You may think it is "silly" to have rules such as "only the human instigates play" but these type of rules are necessary if you have a dog that will potentially challenge your position.  I mean, ideally - all dogs would receive adequate training to assure order in the household - but let's face it - small, untrained dogs do not pose the same potential problem as large, untrained dogs. 

So make the dog do something before you play with it or let it on your lap, isnt that the point of nilif?  It doesnt mean you hafta think of it first.  I still say thats silly.

Also, rolling or pinning a dog can get a person "nipped" (or much worse) in the face. For sure the OP doesn't need that!

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

ORIGINAL: Tankstar

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Some DON'Ts.....
Don't take his food away while he is eating.
Don't "roll" or "pin" him.
Don't shout at or slap him.
Don't "stare him out"
[color="#ff0000"]Don't growl at him
[/color]Don't grab, pull or shove him to where you want to be.  Force is not necessary and is counter productive.  A true leader leads because his followers want  to follow, not because they have been forced into it.  A true leader doesn't stoop to indulge in petty physical confrontations.


It's all pretty basic, common sense stuff when you think about it - and whether he sits in your lap or not pales into insignificance beside it.

I'm going to have to dissagree with a few of these donts (the ones in red) A stare down (untilt he dog looks away) makes you the bigger dog, same as rolling them on their back. I would very muhc like to say taking a dogs food away is good, that way they will not be food aggressive or toy aggressive. growl at him I think goes with the stare down and roll over.

I have done all of these with my dog. He is a very well trained dog now. I'm glad I taught him not to prtect his food. If I hadnt a little 3 year old upstairs would have lost her hand this morning, when he was eating and she decided to grab his ear and grab a handfull of his food (She is visiting this morning, not my kid, or any one in my houses kid. She dosnt have a dog, so dont know how to act around them)

While I can appreciate some people want to make sure their dog is not food aggressive, there are ways to do this which don't involve taking his dinner away.  (Go to the Training Section, Everything Else and "Should dogs be bothered while eating" for more info and debate on this subject)  This is more likely to create a guardy dog than anything else.  If he has the right temperament, it will turn out OK (as it has with you)  But it's wrong to advise newbies to do this.  Try it on the wrong dog and it will end in disaster.  I'm sorry, I've seen too many dogs surrendered to shelters or PTS because of people not taking care with this issue.

WRT the other three you highlighted, I am not going to argue this point here.  But I advise you to go to the Behaviour section, Everything Else and Lupomorphising.  Some interesting points being raised on why you shouldn't see your dog as a wolf from a behavioural point of view and why you should take care when trying to "speak dog" to him.  Some of what you are advising could be dangerous if used on the wrong dog or by an inexperienced owner - be careful.

PS don't even get me started on the "alpha roll" in all its various guises.  If a dog lets you do this, the chances are he is placid enough in his nature that you didn't need to do it, a less confrontational method would have worked as well if not better.  If however he is of a volatile enough nature, then make sure you don't value your face too much before you try it.  Do some research on this subject.  There has been no research that I can find that turns it back around and says its a good thing since it was discredited and refuted.

You can be an affectionate leader.

 
I agree.  It's not an either/or situation.  Being a fair leader to your dog doesn't mean you don't also give affection.  I do think there's timing involved in giving affection, but you certainly should be giving out affection to a young puppy.  If you set the rules of the house up in a clear, simple manner that your pup can understand and learn, you'll all be happier in teh long run.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

ORIGINAL: Tankstar

He is never worried about lossing his food as he is a grazer  I put in his amount he should have for the dya, and it takes him all day to it eat. So its not like he gets a cup, then pounds it. S he is never worried about it going missing.

And this is highly relevant - a dog who is fed set mealtimes only gets one shot at it and is more likely to be keen to hang on to it.  On the other hand, a number of the dogs I've seen with the problem were "grazers".  They would wait for someone to approach the bowl and then run over to guard it.  I believe free feeding undermines NILIF and feeding at set times communicates leadership without the need for any confrontation - you can easily make him work for his food and its clear to him you are in control of this most vital resource.  Grazers get to choose when they eat and how much - they control the resource themselves.

But I belive you should always be alpha dog

You should be a benevolent leader.  You cannot be an "alpha dog" because you are not a dog.  The dog understands you are his leader because you control all resources, not because you "speak dog" to him.  This is not necessary and can be confusing (for dog and human!) or even dangerous.

 
I guess we will agree to dissagree, as I have trained all my dogs this way andnone have ever so much as growled at me, even when blind and deaf. He grazes, but I moniter how much he gets. He gets a set amount int he morning and a set amount at night (About 3- 3-1/2 cups a day) he just eats it when he wants to. I dont keep refilling it when it emptys.

Rolling and pinning a 6-8 week old dog (and a much younger dog) wont do much harm. Dogs do this in the wild also to prove dominence towards each other. Rolling it over and rubbing its belly wont kill you. I dont pin them down and hold them, I roll them and rub their belly not scare them.
 

ORIGINAL: JM

Also, rolling or pinning a dog can get a person "nipped" (or much worse) in the face. For sure the OP doesn't need that!

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

ORIGINAL: Tankstar

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Some DON'Ts.....
Don't take his food away while he is eating.
Don't "roll" or "pin" him.
Don't shout at or slap him.
Don't "stare him out"
[color=#ff0000]Don't growl at him
[/color]Don't grab, pull or shove him to where you want to be.  Force is not necessary and is counter productive.  A true leader leads because his followers want  to follow, not because they have been forced into it.  A true leader doesn't stoop to indulge in petty physical confrontations.


It's all pretty basic, common sense stuff when you think about it - and whether he sits in your lap or not pales into insignificance beside it.

I'm going to have to dissagree with a few of these donts (the ones in red) A stare down (untilt he dog looks away) makes you the bigger dog, same as rolling them on their back. I would very muhc like to say taking a dogs food away is good, that way they will not be food aggressive or toy aggressive. growl at him I think goes with the stare down and roll over.

I have done all of these with my dog. He is a very well trained dog now. I'm glad I taught him not to prtect his food. If I hadnt a little 3 year old upstairs would have lost her hand this morning, when he was eating and she decided to grab his ear and grab a handfull of his food (She is visiting this morning, not my kid, or any one in my houses kid. She dosnt have a dog, so dont know how to act around them)

While I can appreciate some people want to make sure their dog is not food aggressive, there are ways to do this which don't involve taking his dinner away.  (Go to the Training Section, Everything Else and "Should dogs be bothered while eating" for more info and debate on this subject)  This is more likely to create a guardy dog than anything else.  If he has the right temperament, it will turn out OK (as it has with you)  But it's wrong to advise newbies to do this.  Try it on the wrong dog and it will end in disaster.  I'm sorry, I've seen too many dogs surrendered to shelters or PTS because of people not taking care with this issue.

WRT the other three you highlighted, I am not going to argue this point here.  But I advise you to go to the Behaviour section, Everything Else and Lupomorphising.  Some interesting points being raised on why you shouldn't see your dog as a wolf from a behavioural point of view and why you should take care when trying to "speak dog" to him.  Some of what you are advising could be dangerous if used on the wrong dog or by an inexperienced owner - be careful.

PS don't even get me started on the "alpha roll" in all its various guises.  If a dog lets you do this, the chances are he is placid enough in his nature that you didn't need to do it, a less confrontational method would have worked as well if not better.  If however he is of a volatile enough nature, then make sure you don't value your face too much before you try it.  Do some research on this subject.  There has been no research that I can find that turns it back around and says its a good thing since it was discredited and refuted.

Rolling and pinning is a whole different thing than belly rubs.

Most dogs will gleefully roll over (on it's own) for a belly rub.

 If you use force before belly rubs, you are sending a mixed signal.  Which very well could get you a very confused (possibly very anxious) dog.

ORIGINAL: Tankstar

Rolling and pinning a 6-8 week old dog (and a much younger dog) wont do much harm. Dogs do this in the wild also to prove dominence towards each other. Rolling it over and rubbing its belly wont kill you. I dont pin them down and hold them, I roll them and rub their belly not scare them.

Loads of people have "grazers" and they do fine.  I was just stating my opnion that I think set mealtimes are better (for a start it makes house breaking easier) but of course everyone does what they feel suits them best.

Forcibly rolling a dog is different from giving it a belly rub. 
 
The instances of dogs forcibly rolling one another in the wild is rare and often only happens when the roll-er is set on hurting or killing the other dog.  In dominance displays, the roll-er does not forcibly roll the other dog.  The other dog rolls of his own accord to display submission to the bigger, stronger dog.  In addition, a dog does not necessarily see a "roll" from a human the same way as a "roll" from another dog.  They know we are not dogs.  Domestication, selective breeding and generations of growing up with humans has enabled them to read our body language very effectively and they most certainly do differentiate between our body language and another dog's nody language.

This has been discussed at length on another board, and for the most part the people who thought this technique was OK only thought it should be used as a way of restraining/calming a dangerously out of control aggressive dog to stop him from biting a human OR as part of behaviour modification by a trained and experienced professional.  It's NOT something to be done on a regular basis, it's NOT something that should be dog with your average loving pet and it's NOT something you should advice newbie owners to do as a matter of course.  The latter is wildly irresponsible.  Just encouraging a dog to roll over for a belly rub is not the same AT ALL - the dog quickly comes to see this as just another way to get affection and dominance has nothing to do with it.

"A stare down (untilt he dog looks away) makes you the bigger dog,"

Staring down a dog will never make you a bigger dog.  It may make you an itimidating human, but never a bigger dog.

Also, if you teach a dog to avert his eyes when you look at him, you are defeating a major training excersize that you will need in the future.

One of the first things people teach a dog is to focus on the handler.  Which means both you and the dog are looking at one another.

Teaching the dog to hold this gaze is crucial in keeping his attention and focus.

Also, a dog cannot see (and obey) a hand signal if he is taught to look away when you glance at him.

Bad news all around.

To the OP, just my two cents.... pretty much any recognized trainer out there these days will tell you that staring dogs down, rolling/pinning them, and other physical ways of asserting "dominance" are very out-of-date. These methods will not improve your relationship, your safety, or your dog's willingness to view you as a trustworthy leader. And they may be dangerous and lead to aggression issues in some cases. Not to mention, it's just not necessary! Control your dogs resources - food, treats, playtime, toys, affection - and they will see you are the leader. Ignore the dog if he gets pushy. Reward him for behavior you like and want to reinforce. That's all it takes! []