how you disipline?!?!

would NEVER spank my child for such a pointless childish behavior

 
I was never spanked for pointless childhood behavior. I was spanked only for serious infractions. And if you didn't understand why you were being spanked, that is not the fault of the discipline methods, it is (no offense, just my opinion) your parent's fault for not adequately explaining and correctly giving the discipline.

Hey, I have to tell you, I was a spanked child too, and all it did was ruin my relationship with my mother.
 
I never have, and never will come to her with troubles because everytime I admitted I did something wrong, I got spanked.  What's the point of sharing information then?

Please tell me a reason for being spanked, as I have never been spanked.

I was a child in the old spare the rod-spoil the child days.  We were spanked for a mulitude of sins, such as being late for dinner, arguing with our parents, fighting with each other...you name it, it was a spanking offence.  Lying?  OMG that was a major spanking.  Stealing?  Would NOT even have considered it!  Talking back?  Well, that earned you a bar of soap in your mouth.  Is it any wonder that when I got too BIG to spank that I rebelled like crazy?

Hitting a child teaches him only that it's ok to use physical foce

 
I agree with you on this part of your statement. I think that because I was raised with corporal punishment that it has led to the impulse I must control to seek physical retribution as a solution to a conflict. I have been spanked, from a few swats to lashes with a thick leather belt that left me bruised and blistered through two layers of cotton and unable to sit down for a few days. At least there was a finite limit to the physical beating, for example, there arm wears out. What left a bigger effect on me was the psychological and emotional beating I took.
 
Here's an example. I was 13 with no job. We lived in govt. subsidized apts. My step-grandfathers' birthday slipped by and no one had told us. Needless to say, me being 13 at the time and my brother being 11, we didn't have the money to buy him a birthday present and our mom was working 14 and 16 hours a day to keep our heads above water. Our grandmother (and I remember this because I happened to look at the clock) spent from 6:00 p.m. to 12:30 a.m. explaining to us in great detail how we could one day aspire to be the dirt underneath a worm for not having gotten our step-grandfather a present, at the ages of 13 and 11, living so poor that we lived in govt apts and my mom's bonuses at work were in food because we needed it. A spanking lasts a minute, as opposed to 6.5 hours of berating and devaluing you to below dirt, where you could hope to upgrade just to get into Hell.
 
And my mom was no saint. I could disagree with her and it had nothing to do with getting spanked. But I always respected her, and in her house, it was her rules. We were welcome to leave and make it on our own, if we could. BTW, with all the corporal punishment I received, I've never been arrested or been to jail. The punishment at home was deterrent enough, plus I was raised, with the ever-present threat of spankings, to respect others, until I was old enough to see that respecting others was the right thing to do, even without a spanking. But that's from a human perspective.
 
Now, either we train dogs as if they are humans, or we train dogs as if they are dogs. They are not going to speak or think as a human. So, we have to understand their basic drives, as well as the natural correction they may receive from momma dog and the rest of the animal world. I imagine most dogs learn after the first time not to mess with a porcupine.

Most "bad" dog behavior is perfectly normal dog behavior, and is the fault of the owner for not teaching the dog how to live by human rules

 
Truer words were never spoken. As I've said before, most of training objectives directly contradict the instincts of the beast.
 
Question; If the dog doesn't understand "no,"  does he or she understand "good boy' or "good girl" even if it's not followed directly by a treat? By not always giving a treat with the phrase "good boy" or "girl", you are expecting the dog to make an inference or at least enter a state of mind of excitement for food, similar to Pavlov's response.

This is just bothering me more and more. . .spanking a dog and spanking a child are two different things.  Spank the wrong dog and you might get a nice bite and at that point, I say good for the dog.  Nobody has any business putting their hands on an animal unless it's a life or death situation where the dog is attacking someone and you have no other choice.

Lori, because of the abusive situation in my first marriage and my desire to ensure that my boys didn't grow up to beat women like the sperm donor did, I resisted the urge to use physical punishment on a child.  I learned a lot raising children without PHYSICAL discipline. Yes, usually a child can understand the reason for the spanking, but that doesn't stop them from resenting it, and by the time they are old enough to understand, well, they are old enough to be reasoned with and to understand parental disappointment.  A little slap on the butt is honestly the ONLY thing I don't think is wrong.
 
BUT this thread is about disciplining our DOGS, not our kids. You're right on that and I agree 1000%.

I agree back, Glenda.  I don't think anyone should be hitting their kids these days either.  I was spanked but I don't know, at this point it seems like a very outdated thing to do, sort of like putting soap in a kids mouth.  Or, in relation to dogs, alpha rolls. 
 
Your boys were very lucky to have such a great mom.

ORIGINAL: inne


I also think your dog cowers because it is scared of your tone of voice and the physical punishment associated with it, not because it understands that you're upset about the pee.

Excellent point.... I have never physically handled Romeo. When I have had to discipline, low growling like tones (not shouting either) have worked just fine and you would be amazed the things you can achieve with + R.  It kills me when I see dogs cowering from their "owners" I don't believe that is ever a good sign.  You want your dog to respect you, not fear you.

ORIGINAL: Pooch_luvr

A much eaiser way to handle the peeing on the carpet while your gone would be to crate train, if your pup is doing this while your there, you have not picked up on your pups signals of when he needs to go. If you keep up with the newspaper it's going to just take you longer to potty train, your pup will still go on your carpet but it will be somewhere that you don't see it because your right they are smart.

the crate should NEVER be used as a disipline tool for a dog. the point of the crate is to be used as comfort and a place when you are away, never to be a "bad' thing! 

 
It all depends on how the human uses it.  Romeo, has a crate w/no door that he goes into whenever he does not want to be bothered or wants to "feel safe" from the loud booms of the thunder.. he sees his crate as a safe haven... not some sort of cage from hell... 

Now, either we train dogs as if they are humans, or we train dogs as if they are dogs. They are not going to speak or think as a human. So, we have to understand their basic drives, as well as the natural correction they may receive from momma dog and the rest of the animal world. I imagine most dogs learn after the first time not to mess with a porcupine.

ORIGINAL: ron2


Ron, as always you make good sense.    This is why I look forward to your posts.  You make your point in a serious manner and then demonstrate it quite colorfully.  And you manage to hit the nail on the head.

Case in point:  Xerxes was maybe 5 months old when he happened upon a toad.  I thought it was a frog so I let him grab it.  Well it swelled up into a ball, which is when I realized it wasn't a frog.  He dropped it, the toad rolled down the small embankment so he "chased " it and picked it up again, only to spit it out almost immediately. 
Needless to say we were both up all night, him vomiting, me consoling and cleaning up.  We've seen hundreds of toads since.  He's never even sniffed at another toad.  Perfect correlation of this action=this consequence.  And when I think of it, if I were to have intervened he might have never learned that lesson.

  A little slap on the butt is honestly the ONLY thing I don't think is wrong.

I came home from college and was sitting at the dinner table when my nephew (age 2) started throwing his food all over the place.  No one said a thing to him.  He kept throwing the food.  Since he was sitting next to me, I tapped him on the hand and said "We DON'T throw food in this house."  That tap on the hand wasn't a slap, it didn't hurt him and he didn't cry.  I just directed his attention towards the offending action, yet the tongue lashing I got from his mom (my sister) was pretty severe.  "We don't HIT in this house...etc" Well all I can say is that this nephew of mine didn't throw any more food that evening.  That was the only time I had to tell him..  The funny thing is that he always listened better to me than to his mom.  Probably because I wouldn't tell only tell him what not to do, I'd tell him what to do instead.  "Don't go there, stay over here please."

I think the same thing, can apply to dogs, less the tapping.  Dogs aren't that good at substituting one behavior for another, that's where we, the owners, come in.  Rather than saying "NO" or "DON'T" we need to redirect.  "No we don't chew on wires,or destroy pillows Xerxes,  how about a nice kong instead?" 

I think the substitution of appropriate behaviors does two things:  It redirects the dog's energy and makes us happy and it reinforces appropriate behaviors in the minds of our dogs.  To tell a dog "No in the house, don't you know how much that white carpet costs?" is ludicrous and all it does is reinforce to us that our dog is "bad" and as has been posted on this thread, make us appear a bit unstable. 

I hit Xerxes once.  We were in the truck and I was pulled over getting directions from someone.  Xerxes was barking up a storm, right in my ear.  I slapped him on the thigh and told him to shut up.  I felt pretty bad about it because he stopped barking immediately and when I looked back into his eyes I could almost feel the disappointment and loss of trust.  To be honest that we the exact moment that I decided that every single bit of training with him would be positive reinforcement.  Xerxes wouldn't look at me for 2 days.  He didn't sleep in the bed and didn't or wouldn't stay in the same room with me.  Could you blame him?  The person he trusted and adored the most just hurt him.for doing his job and protecting his truck.

That's why I'm against negative reinforcement.  That's why I'm against choking a dog or alpha rolling a dog.  That's why I'm against inflicting any sort of pain or anguish or helplessness on a dog.  Our dogs trust us with their lives.  We owe it to them to not act on impulse, to be the leaders that they deserve, to treat them as well as we want them to treat us.

Sorry this is so long.

I say a firm No to Blue. I was spanked by my mom as a kid and we dont have a bond at all.
 
I would not spank an animal with newspaper or anything in that matter. I saw what happen to my old neighbors pit bull that they hit it with any object in their hand. If you had anything in your hands he would try to attack you because he thought he was going to get hit and it got so bad that it became a danger to even come out of your house. Since they let that dog run loose through the neighbor only to be beating worse when it came home for being dirty.
 
Sadly in the end the dog bit DPNL women and a child before they had the dog was removed from them then finally put to sleep. The dog was suppose to be put to sleep the first time it bit someone yet they moved the dog up to city to keep the thing alive. Several people reported them to the dog pound since we had no shelters then. No one came out and did nothing about the dog before it attacked someone.
 
I don't know if this may happen to every dog that gets hit with any kind of object such as a newspaper,but I rather not risk it.  I also don't like putting your dog in his crate for disipline. The dog eventually learns that the crate is bad and doesn't want anything to do with it.

My mom has told me she would use spanking to make an impression if I did something very dangorous, but I honestly don't remember ever being spanked.  I do remember being slapped across the face as a teenager once, but I would be shocked if I didn't deserve it-I had a REALLY smart mouth.

When we first got Sally, it took her a while to be not be scared of DH.  Then he made the mistake of trying to play with a stick with her.  The second he picked up the stick to show it to her and throw she shrunk down into a cower and ran away from him.  It took a while for her to feel comfortable around him again.
 
Now he can pick up anything around her and she doesn't care.

The person he trusted and adored the most just hurt him.for doing his job and protecting his truck.

 
Bingo. I re-examine what my view of dog behavior is and remember that he is doing what a dog does. How can this work for us, rather than me try to dominate the human way? Or is it truly a problem or do I need to change and adjust my behavior and or expectations? And, FWIW,  from what I've seen of wolf pack behavior, actual physical violence, such as fighting, etc, is used mainly for exclusion. That is, it signals to the canid that it is not welcome. In our world, that is sending the wrong message.
 
So, rather than expect the dog to read my mind, it is upon me to better understand my dog's motivation and how that fits into what we want for our group, pack, cross-species dynamic, whathaveyou. Sometimes, we humans have to make adjustments, such as special or separate feeding arrangements, etc. I would say for someone unwilling to or not having the patience, perhaps they should have a cat.
 
We can take a lesson from momma dog. Scruff or pinning is her last resort. More often, she gives a look, or growl, or bumps, which is actually re-direction. Also, she corrects for different reasons. She corrects towards survival of the pack, rather than agility or off-leash obedience. Yet, we as humans, through better understanding of their drives and behavior can lead them to these stellar acomplishments in a way that secures their place in the pack in their mind. A secure, confident dog usually doesn't cause a problem. They know where they fit in and will seek to maintain that position, even if it means having to obey a human.