how you disipline?!?!

I really like Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot The Dog, although I thought it was just a dog book .... it's a training book ... Train your dog, your cat, your dolphin, your kids, your significant other, etc.
 
Excellent book.
 
I also like Culture Clash.

Kind of a funny spanking story--My mom was NOT spanking mom, but she did use it to make an impression in life or death type situations (like running into a road, etc).  When I did something wrong as a small child, she would let me choose my consequence, which was generally a time out, time in my room, having a toy taken away, etc.

So, one time I did something wrong, and appently "chose" to be spanked.  She was horrified and refused, and I argued that she said I could choose the consequence, and I wanted to be spanked.  She of course didn't spank me, but gave me a time out or something instead--from then on she made me choose from a LIST of consequences.

I was thinking it over and i forgot to mention this in my posts! When showing the disipline you have to do it right then and there! of course a puppy isn't going to understand what it did let's say, 10 minutes afterward. you have to carch them while or right after they have pottied indoors or something of that sort. like a young child, of course they won't understand unless you tell them right away!

the biggest problem with "spanking" a dog is that you have to make the consequences of behavior clear to the dog within a few seconds of the action. How long does it take you to go grab a rolled up newspaper? by the time you get back, the dog has completely forgotten that he just ate your dinner, and figures you're a lunatic attacking him for no reason. (If you must interrupt a doggy behavior due to your own poor planning, saying EH or uhoh in a sharp voice works much better than No. )
 
I guess if you just kicked him in the head at the time he might not ever eat your dinner when you're around to catch him. Or he might react by fighting back, since one of the Overriding Rules of Dogs is He Who Has it in Possession Owns It. No dog would ever be so rude as to try to take food out of the mouth of another dog. Which is why teaching a dog how to behave in human society works so much better than unishing dogs who are just following dog rules.

When i get a new puppy (my own,ect) i always keep it on my tiled kitchen floor. i'm always keeping a close eye on her! until a puppy graduates from the tiles, i try to catch it right away

ORIGINAL: Pooch_luvr

Your right, and maybe positive reinforcement is the way to go, but wouldn't you eventually find a connection between what you did and the outcome of it?

 
Show me a dog that has the cognitive skills and reason to associate a past behavior with a present punishment. 
 
Dogs have a very simple intellect.  Even the smartest of dogs don't have the ability to understand anything above the basics.  Dogs don't think "My mom is hitting me with the newspaper because I peed on the carpet."  They think more along the lines of "Mom is mad.  The newspaper is going to hurt me."  In other words they don't reason the "why" of it all. 
 
Abstract thought isn't something that dogs do.  And since they don't have the ability to communicate with us in a way that we clearly understand, nor we with them, punishment, discipline or negative reinforcement may work, but I do not believe that it is as efficacious as positive reinforcement.  And there may be undesired side-effects of it, like being hand shy, being afraid of newspapers, becoming fear aggressive or possibly something worse.

Exactly.  Dogs don't have deductive reasoning skills and are NOT able to connect cause (I peed on the carpet) and effect (Mom screams and hits me) to the logical (to us) conclusion that if I don't want mom to scream and hit, then I'd better not pee on the carpet.

LizzieCollie --
 
Spanking a child also gets you nothing, he may not become a woman beater or a murderer but take two kids and put them in the same room. You can tell by the confidence and joy that the child experiences which one has not been beaten. The same goes for a dog

So I can't experience joy as much as another person because I was spanked as a child? You have GOT to be kidding me.....Spanking is NOT beating....

So I can't experience joy as much as another person because I was spanked as a child? You have GOT to be kidding me.....Spanking is NOT beating....

 
Right on!

ORIGINAL: whtsthfrequency

LizzieCollie --
 
Spanking a child also gets you nothing, he may not become a woman beater or a murderer but take two kids and put them in the same room. You can tell by the confidence and joy that the child experiences which one has not been beaten. The same goes for a dog

So I can't experience joy as much as another person because I was spanked as a child? You have GOT to be kidding me.....Spanking is NOT beating....

 
There is no better adjusted child than the one whos parents talked to and treated with respect. Plain and simple a child that was hit will NEVER have the same confidence as a child who grew up in an ideal setting. Of course this is all IMO.
 
But back on the dog subject, a dog who is hit and yelled at will most likely not understand why they are being yelled at. If I were to 'kick Lizzie in the head' (God forbid, when she was being house trained and peed in the house, what would I get out of it? Nothing
 
She wouldnt think "Mom kicked me because I peed in the house, on her favorite rug" Shes going to associate me with pain. Or going potty in front of mom gets me pain, making her more likely to go off to a corner and pee and poop, where I cant see her, or worse yet not wanting to potty outside because I am around.
 
Dogs arent humans and we arent dogs, so we cannot try and behave like dogs and we cant pretend that they behave like us and follow our rules. We cant go around Alpha Rolling, and Neck Scruffing our dogs because no matter what wolves or other dogs do we are not dogs. We cant expect a dog to learn all the rules and all their commands at one time because they do not understand, sit down off stay or whatever.
 
We brought them into our world so we must work in their favor, wolves never asked to be domesticated and to be made into our purebreds of today.

 lain and simple a child that was hit will NEVER have the same confidence as a child who grew up in an ideal setting.
 
I'd agree with just about everything you said in your above post except what I have pasted here.

Hitting a child teaches him only that it's ok to use physical foce if you are bigger and stronger than the one you want to hit.  Hitting a dog teaches him that you are irrational and unpredictable.  Why would we want to do either?

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Hitting a child teaches him only that it's ok to use physical foce if you are bigger and stronger than the one you want to hit.  Hitting a dog teaches him that you are irrational and unpredictable.  Why would we want to do either?

 
Thank you Glenda, you always seem to be able to make sense!

There is no better adjusted child than the one whos parents talked to and treated with respect.
 
My parents treated me with respect. But when I did something that caused them to lose that respect, they let me know it. Respect is something that cannot just be handed out, or else it gets taken advantage of.  Respect must be earned and kept. If you "respect" your kids no matter what they do, you end up with that kind of kid who does whatever they want and talks to adults and parents like they are his/her "buddies" or "pals" or "peers" which they most certainly are not.
 
And again. Spanking is NOT "hitting" or "beating"...there is a difference. I think anyone who had been truly abused would be quick to point out the difference to you.

A parent who shows respect for their child does not hit their child EVER. My mother and father included. At the age that I received my "spankings" I was not at a stage where I could truly understand why I was being spanked, all I thought afterwards was "It wasnt that bad, why did they spank me?"
 
I would NEVER spank my child for such a pointless childish behavior, a stern lecture is often all that it takes.
 
At 1 hes not understanding the lectures, which is why us as humans must deal with human behaviors in a human matter (make sense?) and its why when I cant understand why DS is hitting and biting I read up on his development and way of thinking, so that I can better correct the behavior.
 
The first time I told him 'No' (not yelling) he cried for 5 minutes straight and that is not something I want to repeat. It doesnt mean I will slack off on parenting and let him walk all over me, it just means i'll have to find a new strategy where all I want to be learned actually gets through to him