how you disipline?!?!

    • Gold Top Dog

    how you disipline?!?!

    i have a question for all owners!

    i have heard in some prior brief threads that a light spanking when diciplining your puppy is a big no no in the owners eyes.

    i think that (like a child) they need to know that what they are doing is NOT exceptable. You may say, well, they don't understand... i Beg to differ on that statment!!!

    you can't tell me that a dog can't make the connection that a spanking means what they are doing is wrong. I don't mean you have to abuse them , not at all, i just mean a spanking or a little smack on the bottom to be a reminder.

    what do you guys think?
    • Gold Top Dog
    It's still a big nono.  And for the record, I think it's wrong to spank children too.  All the dog is doing is associating your hand with pain, not that what it did was wrong.  Good way to make a handshy dog, no matter how "lightly" you do it
    • Gold Top Dog
    Are you saying that when your dog pees on your nice white carpet you should ignore it? when i point to the stain and say to one of them "what is THAT?" they coward so they have to understand! some people don't give their dogs enough credit or am i just a wierdo (well, probably but...) anyhow, i was just shooting this out there because i have always disiplined my dogs and they never have accidents so i must have done something right?!?!


    off subject:jackie, but i live very close to Green Bay and go there often! who knows... we may have crossed paths!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Good way to make a handshy dog, no matter how "lightly" you do it



     
    P.s. I forgot to mention that i never use my hand, i use a rolled up newpaper to disipline!
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    I use only positive reinforcement and have a very well-trained dog without any 'side effects' as a result.   I also have a dog who trusts me and has never been scared of me or cowered.  Physical punishment may work, but, even if you don't object to it morally, there is risk involved and there are better ways of shaping good behaviour.

    I also think your dog cowers because it is scared of your tone of voice and the physical punishment associated with it, not because it understands that you're upset about the pee.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Pooch_luvr

    Are you saying that when your dog pees on your nice white carpet you should ignore it? when i point to the stain and say to one of them "what is THAT?" they coward so they have to understand!


     
    I think that when you do that, they are more than likely cowering to your raised voice (and perhaps your hand gesture) rather than the words you are saying. Dogs don't speak English, but they do know how to read our body language a lot better than we can read theirs.
     
    As an analogy (it might not be a very good one) imagine you were staying with someone in a completely different country/planet where they spoke language you didn't understand, and did everything completely different to you... Your friend/guardian/whatever would tell you to do stuff (that you didn't understand) and then yell and slap you upside the head (or smack you on the botom with a rolled up newspaper) when (presumably) you didn't do what they wanted..
     
    What would that be like? How would you act then?
     
     
     
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Your right, and maybe positive reinforcement is the way to go, but wouldn't you eventually find a connection between what you did and the outcome of it?
    • Gold Top Dog
    I assume you mean between the connection between being told off/disciplined and the wrong behaviour?
     
    I guess so but it would take a lot longer than if you used +R because:
    1) Being told NO or punished only tells the dog what it's doing wrong, and not what it should do instead
    2)  punishment isn't very nice and if extreme/often enough can cause learned helplessness- basically the dog will eventually figure that it can't do anything right and becomes unresponsive, furthermore
     
    Also a dog may generalise so that it's not only the whack on bottom with a newspaper that it becomes afraid of, but also the person that's giving it, or any people at all, for that matter.
     
    There's a large large body of scientific research that shows positive reinforcement consistently works far better than punishment. Also, negative punishment - taking away a reward (such as attention/cuddles/privileges) seems to  work better than positive punishment- e.g. giving a smack on the bottom.
     
    So whichever way you look at it, there's almost always a better way to teach a dog something than giving it a smack. IMO, anyway.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Also, negative punishment - taking away a reward (such as attention/cuddles/privileges)

     
    how would they know that what you are doing is in connection to what they have doen wrong. a young pup ecspecially only has an attention span of so and so minutes. the "wrong" doing needs to be punished in the early stages of when it happened for best results. I think a mixture of +R and disipline is the route!
    • Gold Top Dog
    I was going to post but I can't. . .what kind of people are joining this forum lately. . .[:@]
    • Gold Top Dog
    how would they know what you are doing is in connection to what they have doen wrong. a young pup ecspecially only has an attention span of so and so minutes. the "wrong" doing needs to be punished in the early stages of when it happened for best results. 

     
    You can let them know they've done something wrong by just having a word/marker for it. e.g. when toilet training a "uh-uh" when you catch them doing it inside, or a "wrong" when they dont respond to a command when you ask for it.
     
    I totally agree with you on that when you're punishing, it has to be done immediately for it to be effective at all, not just for "best results". Yelling at them 10 minutes after they've pottied on the floor and when they're doing something else will make you seem unpredictable.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Pooch_luvr

    P.s. I forgot to mention that i never use my hand, i use a rolled up newpaper to disipline!



     
    Great, so just make a dog who is afraid of anything that you pick up around them like my foster failure Baxter.  Come over sometime and try to roll a newspaper near him.  You may not like what he does.  Thank his previous owners for that.
    • Gold Top Dog
    We all have our own opinions, so here's mine: why spank someone when another, more benevolent method works -- and works better? My dog's former owner used to hit her on the rear with a rolled-up newspaper very lightly for housetraining. She's a shy dog and that certainly did nothing to build her confidence. Even now, she's still a little hand-shy and recently, my housekeeper was holding a rolled-up newspaper in her hand and waved it a little at my dog (which I later told her never to do again), and my dog cowered and slunk away.
    • Gold Top Dog
    If the pup is peeing on the white carpet, it is the OWNER who deserves a whack with the newspaper for not watching the pup close enough.  They don't KNOW that WE want them to potty outside until we teach them that, and the foreign language analogy is a good one.  Eventually that sort of behavior *might* teach the pup not to pee in front of you, but that causes OTHER problems, such as when you are out for a walk or traveling and the pup refuses to go because you are watching, but they are not able to relate cause (I peed on the carpet) and effect (she screams and hits me) to a logical conclusion (so I'd better not pee on the carpet).
     
    Yes, dogs are highly intelligent animals and they DO understand a lot of words IN TIME.  I never try to "hide" medication in my dogs food.  Heck, they can smell it before I even open the bottle, so we have a little routine of giving cheese and "this is JUST cheese"  "now this one has the pill in it.....remember Dr. Pam said you NEED this pill to feel better".  Same with my leaving the house.  If I have a few quick errands to run I tell them that I'm going to the store.....if I have a LOT of errands to run I tell them that I have to go the LOTS of stores and if I'm going to be gone for much of the day, I tell them I'm going to see Grandma because to them, that's a LONG time for me to be gone.  I give them something that they can relate to, NOT my entire itinerary.
     
    My tone of voice can be a much more lethel weapon than my hand and I have to be very careful HOW I let my disappointment show because a word can really damage their little physces.  I can make a 90 pound dog wither by saying "I'm disappointed in you".
     
    Dogs do not have the deductive reasoning skills that humans have.  If we humanize them, we do them a disservice.
     
    And, for the record, I don't believe in a light spanking for children either.  My first husband was abusive, verbally and physically.  He came from a history of abuse.  These things are cycular and I was determined that MY sons would not grow up to hit a woman or anyone else.  My youngest son could not hold still and running away in stores or on the street was part of his lack of impulse control.  Rather than punish him for a combination of MY failure as a mom and his whacky genetics, I managed the situation by putting him in a harness.  Yep, I got lots of dirty looks, lots of hateful comments, but it was much easier to hold his "leash" than to try to cling onto a squirmy little hand AND by having the decision removed from him, he was much calmer in public places.  He could still roam a little bit and that satisfied his need to see and touch everything, but I knew that I'd be able to find him if I happened to blink or stop to look at the price on something.  His sperm donors solution was to beat him for not obeying, but, much like a dog, he could not process cause and effect behavior at that age and all he got out of that was a sore rump and the feeling that the man was just mean and irrational.  This child, much more so than his older brother who DID have some deductive reasoning skills, needed very clear (and simple) and consistent guidelines and a very clear understanding of my expectations in each and every circumstance.
     
    Now, maybe, having raised this particular child to adulthood I'm more able to understand the thought process of my dogs because, just like a dog, this child literally had NO idea what everyone was upset about 2 seconds after he did whatever it was he did to upset us.
     
    I will relate yet again the story of the foster who came back to us.  He left my home housetrained, yet that's all I kept hearing from this woman....he pees all over the house.  He had issues with a certain type of flooring and he had a fear of stairs.  Now my dogs went out from the lower level into their fenced yard.....here's a dog that doesn't want to be WITH the other dogs, is afraid of them all of a sudden, and sure didn't want to do the stairs.  He was with his other "family" for two months and came back in the dead of winter.  MY failure to get something set up for him quickly enough on the main level so he could go out without braving the stairs or the other dogs led him to have ONE accident in my home.  I gently said "eh eh, did you forget that we go OUTSIDE to go POTTY?"  Got him outside, told him to go potty and praised him when he finished there.  He's never made another mistake in the house.  I've no doubt that screaming, yelling and "bad dog" was what he heard in the other house, yet that ONE gentle reminder (and my setting something up for him immediately) was all it took for him to understand that we go potty outside.  And in fact, he's the most vocal about needing to go outside if I'm busy and fail to notice his subtle requests...HE will come get me and demand that I let him outside to go potty.  That is not an accident.
     
    This boy came back, after just two months, timid, hand shy, skittish and really fearful of everything.  I don't have to peek in the windows of that family to know that they used corporal punishment with him.  I can tell from his behavior.
     
    You're going to do whatever it is that you want to do regardless of what any of us tells you, but I'm here to tell you, having housetrained LITTERS of pups, that hitting is not the way to go.
    • Puppy
    IMHO  all training should be done with positive reinforcement.  itting and punishing are purely detrimental to your relationship, which will last more than a decade.
     
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