Do you have Free Will?

Free will example:
 
One day before halloween you go to buy a custom, at the store they have more than 500 customes to choose from, i have the free will to dress up as i want

Another free Will example: []
 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Sure my perspective shapes the choices I have, but I still have those choices, and I exercise my free will in determining which to choose.

And that is precisely the appearance of Free Will that I am referring to.[]

 
But again, if that's the case, the actual free will as you define of course will not exist...it's a straw man concept.  You have defined free will in such a way that it is impossible for it to exist...so the point of the question "do you have free will?" is moot.
 
by the way, I very recently chose to change my mind ... I am having a drink tonight...it's been a long day.  viva la free will.

ORIGINAL: cakana

Sure my perspective shapes the choices I have, but I still have those choices, and I exercise my free will in determining which to choose.

That's the way I view free will too. If someone pushes me off the ledge, I have no choice but to drop. If I step off the ledge, I have made a choice. If the building is on fire, then it may been what seemed like the best choice, but it's still a choice. We debated this in my philosophy class and it made my head hurt [>:].

Is your ability to control external events in the world an indicator of free will?

If you are chosing to jump of the ledge due to fire, how much of a choice is it if you didn't choose for the fire to be set?

Conversely, if I did not chose to be pushed off the ledge, the choices that nonetheless remain are in how I respond to it: close eyes/open eyes, curl into a ball or not, say my last good byes or scream in anger and indignation. Almost all life events that effect us are external, and beyond our control (sun rises, meteors fall, pedestrians block your left turn, your babysitter's got the flu, your neighbor won the lottery). But that's not the crux of free will, methinks.

(oopsie, headache time [])

Oh, and ...

What about free willy?

But again, if that's the case, the actual free will as you define of course will not exist...it's a straw man concept. You have defined free will in such a way that it is impossible for it to exist...so the point of the question "do you have free will?" is moot.

Exactly!

There is no such thing as Free Will in my opinion because for Will to be Free, it has to be free of  interference, free from the color of experience, free from influence.  By that definition free will cannot exist in a cognizant being. 

Now if I were to choose a color to be my favorite color, that should be an example of Free Will, shouldn't it?  But it's not.  My color preference might be because I've been told I look good while wearing that color, or because I have good memories of that particular color, or perhaps my grandmother wore that color when she held me for the first time. 

Until someone can give me an example where Will is not influenced by experience then I cannot believe that Free Will exists.  I do think it's a truly marvelous concept, just not one that can truly exist.

ETA:

I think this is a great discussion on both philosophical and logical grounds.  I acknowledge that everyone has a valid opinion, no one's opinion is more valid than the next, including and especially mine.  This is the type of rhetorical argument I live to have, so please don't mistake my enthusiasm for anything other than enthusiasm.[]

Hmm, what then is "free"? Completely without influence, information, desire, history, language, society, divinity, bias, preference, coaxing, discrimination, pleasure, discomfort, memory, projection, assumption, association, .... ?

Is "free" the absence of e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g?

Is "free" the absence of e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g?

For me, absolute freedome goes hand in hand with absolute knowing/understanding/predicting.  For example, I think I have freedom to prefer the color blue over the color purple, to choose a GSD rather than a husky.  However, I can't really explain why I like the color blue and GSDs.  I can list certain qualities in those things that I like, but I can't tell you why I like a velcro dog and don't as much care for an independent dog, I just do.  I just made choices based on some inklings in my brain that themselves I cannot explain.  I know why I love my DH, but I don't know why I like men that are athletically built and outgoing rather than men that are thin and reserved.  How can I be free to absolutely make my own choice, when I can't explain the why of the why?

So, I think you either have to be everything, or be nothing.

Is "free" the absence of e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g?

You've got it!

That's true Free Will. 

Have you ever seen street magicians do card tricks where they tell someone to choose a card from the deck, then they flip the deck of cards so that all the card faces are exposed?  The person invariably chooses a card they see.  Free Will, right?

The "magician" has rigged the deck so that one card appears for about 1/17th or so of a second, as opposed to the others that appear for 1/20th of a second or longer.  The human eye sees at about 13-17 "frames" a second so that particular card is the one that the majority of people choose.  Then the performer "miraculously" exposes through various routines which card it is. 

What I'm arguing is that there is influence everywhere.  Perhaps there are some people, somewhere, that are not influenced by logic, common sense, folklore, their upbringing, environmental factors, experiences, future goals, or by a butterfly flapping it's wings in Indonesia.  If that person exists, then she/he understands Free Will.

I, in no way, am saying that Self Determination does not exist.  If that was the case, we'd all still be living in caves.  I can choose to turn off this computer, or hit the cancel button, or I can go make myself a glass of iced tea.  I can do any of these things and any of a thousand more-but the choice that I make is to use my mouse to depress the "OK" button when I'm finished typing my response.  I do this because I'm determined to post this.  I'm determined to post this because it's in my "makeup" or it's "who I am."  It's not my Free Will. 

Free Will literally means, like you said, free from all of those things.  If you weren't bound by upbringing, history, culture, religion, belief systems, morals, family priorities, or anything else, what would you do?  People are not like an Etch-a-Sketch.  We can't just shake ourselves and completely obliterate the screen and our values, mores and folkways. 

There is also the perpective that our lives are mapped out for us by a Creator or Divinity, that our Will is proscribed for us via DNA, or whatever.   I don't think I should engage in that discussion, given my views.[]  But look at studies of twins separated at birth for a better perspective of that!

Ed - how then do you explain the person who is predisposed to drink, abuse animals/children/spouses, be a Christian/atheist.....yet, they "choose" a different path?  Your thoughts and explanation seen too black & white and discount the reality of what free will really looks like. The young teen growing up in the ghetto with everyone around them turning to crime, yet they take a path to education and success.  Why? Why does one family member (my sister, for example) struggle with drugs while the others don't? 

ORIGINAL: cakana

Ed - how then do you explain the person who is predisposed to drink, abuse animals/children/spouses, be a Christian/atheist.....yet, they "choose" a different path?  Your thoughts and explanation seen too black & white and discount the reality of what free will really looks like. The young teen growing up in the ghetto with everyone around them turning to crime, yet they take a path to education and success.  Why? Why does one family member (my sister, for example) struggle with drugs while the others don't? 

Self Determinism.

I'm an addict and an alcoholic.  I already posted that.
I was raised in an Pentecostal Apostolic Church, yet I'm an Athiest now. 
Though I could do all sorts of white collar work, I sell auto parts.


It's not Free Will.  It's Self Determinism. 

I don't mean to be cold here, and I respect those that make "good" choices (I hate to assign value judgements in these discussions.) that go against the grain.  But for them to make that choice, there has to be a kernel of hope, or some other influence that made them whatever they have become, or the consequence of their actions.

I'm not saying that a person cannot be self-directed.  I am saying that self-direction is based entirely upon perspective, perception and to consider that Free Will is incorrect.  

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

But again, if that's the case, the actual free will as you define of course will not exist...it's a straw man concept. You have defined free will in such a way that it is impossible for it to exist...so the point of the question "do you have free will?" is moot.

Exactly!

There is no such thing as Free Will in my opinion because for Will to be Free, it has to be free of  interference, free from the color of experience, free from influence.  By that definition free will cannot exist in a cognizant being. 

Now if I were to choose a color to be my favorite color, that should be an example of Free Will, shouldn't it?  But it's not.  My color preference might be because I've been told I look good while wearing that color, or because I have good memories of that particular color, or perhaps my grandmother wore that color when she held me for the first time. 

Until someone can give me an example where Will is not influenced by experience then I cannot believe that Free Will exists.  I do think it's a truly marvelous concept, just not one that can truly exist.

ETA:

I think this is a great discussion on both philosophical and logical grounds.  I acknowledge that everyone has a valid opinion, no one's opinion is more valid than the next, including and especially mine.  This is the type of rhetorical argument I live to have, so please don't mistake my enthusiasm for anything other than enthusiasm.[]

 
what I was getting at is that, by your definition, there is no discussion.  Everyone should agree with you.  But then what's the point of dicussing it?  I could tell you there's no such thing as a Omfkjjenht, which I'll define as a wingless beakless eyeless bird that never touches the ground, eats 20 times its body weight and can spot a ship on the horizon from 100 miles away...but so what?  I have defined a thing that does not exist, so if I pose the question to you about whether it exists, that would just be silly.
 
What I was getting at was that to really discuss free will, you have to give it a definition that makes it possible to have the discussion...the way you've defined it, it's a non-starter.

It's not Free Will. It's Self Determinism.

 
Maybe we're splitting hairs here since it seems that we're both saying that people can and do make choices.  You call it self-determinism and I call it free will. 

I agree with pbarbato, the only direction for the discussion I can find is metaphysical.

ORIGINAL: Liesje
So, I think you either have to be everything, or be nothing.

How to *be* everything *or* nothing doesn't compute, for me. But, I am familiar with having moments of feeling that my awareness encompasses everything *and* nothing at the same time! []

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Is "free" the absence of e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g?

You've got it!

Then "free" is also an absence of will. [] And, the question becomes, "Are you free?", until you are free of the question as well ... which leads us to >>

[sm=meditate.gif]

When you first study Zen, mountains are mountains. Then mountains are no longer mountains. Finally, mountains are mountains again.


Free, as defined here, as in "not-at-all", isn't functional for me in terms of discussing how we function in this reality. It is absolute. So, while Buddhism teaches that the absolute is the true nature of the relative, the absolute can only be *directly* experienced, not discussed, acted or directed; it's beyond the laws of cause and effect.
[]

Maybe we're splitting hairs here since it seems that we're both saying that people can and do make choices. You call it self-determinism and I call it free will.

I agree completely.  It's a matter of definition.  I still say choices are governed by several aspects of one's life, and the lives of those that have influenced that person.  But I cannot acknowledge that choices are inspired by Free Will, because as we both agree, my definition of Free Will precludes that.

Free, as defined here, as in "not-at-all", isn't functional for me in terms of discussing how we function in this reality. It is absolute. So, while Buddhism teaches that the absolute is the true nature of the relative, the absolute can only be *directly* experienced, not discussed, acted or directed; it's beyond the laws of cause and effect.

Well said and well met!

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Well said and well met!

[]

I wish there was a hat tipping, or curtseying icon! Thanks for the provocative thoughts!