Do you have Free Will?

I think when we say a person acted out of "free will", we are implying that the person could have acted otherwise. Or that they can freely choose among choices, without any forces acting upon them to coerce/make them act the way they did.

Does that make sense? lol. This probably should have been discussed first [8|]

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

determined - when?

a) now
b) at the beginning of time
c) never
d) none of the above

It is possible that some "supreme being" determined our futures at the beginning of time - when humans first walked the Earth.
 It is also possible that our future actions are determined throughout our lifetimes.. or beginning at our time in the womb
Or maybe they're not determined at all [8D] lol

Or maybe it is none of the above. lol. You tell me []

ORIGINAL: cakana

a) our actions are determined (something makes it happen),

I don't really understand this one.  What is an example of "something makes it happen"?  I think of very few things as involuntary or not of free will.  Even if someone holds a gun to your head and threatens to kill you, you still have choices, albeit not always very good ones.  I can't explain how I *know* I have free will, but I absolutely believe I do and hold myself accountable for everything I do.

When I say "something makes it happen" I simply mean something - anything - some force, is applied to you to make you act the way you did.
And yes, this question doesn't have any real solid, scientific answer. Thats why it's philosophy []

So if someone held a gun to your head.. what would your choices be? And, what would you do? Perhaps it might help to talk out this specific situation []

There are so many issues that cloud and obscure the idea of free will, or freedom of will. 
 
For one we know that genes determine alot about a person- from intelligence to facial features and brain development.  Then there are environmental issues.  I am left handed because my older sister wrote and ate left handed.  I do almost everything else with my right hand. 
 
I am a non-drinking alcoholic and non-using drug addict.  I could also become a gambling addict, if I were to discover the "high" behind it.  This is because I have the "addiction" gene- which has been identified.  I have a predilection towards addiction.  Not a choice that was made from free will, it's something different entirely.
 
I've been completely substance free for over 14 years-you could say that my choice to become so was free will, but in fact it has become another addiction of mine.  Some people's circumstances don't let them make the same choices. 
 
Free Will is at best the perception that a choice is made independent of any of the other choices. 

ORIGINAL: sierra2002


So if someone held a gun to your head.. what would your choices be? And, what would you do? Perhaps it might help to talk out this specific situation []

if thats the case lets discuss suicide bombers and atheists.
if free will didnt exist in religion then we would all be happy christians, budists, pagans, what have you. there would be only one religion and lots of dead people and many religious wars and people in hiding.... didnt that already happen? SEVERAL times?
Some would say a suicide bomber is under the influence of... either his religion or leader.. or both. which is why cultures like that are the hardest to fight. unless you napalm the whole country you will have a constant threat.
but in the regards to atheists... they chose that route. even if their parents were devout catholics, their kid still chose to break away and NOT participate. Now to participate and not want to disrespect the parents for fear of being judged or hurting their feelings is, to me, an absence of free will.
so its my own opinion that free will varies from each individual mind. the weaker the mind, then the weaker the will power to stand up for themselves and make their own choices.
i also think it has more than one factor to it. i think a person with a strong personality can also give in to the will of others based on right or wrong... which is why the majority of people follow the law as opposed to the majority that DOESNT.
Ever noticed how stupid some laws are? Murder is a crime punishable by death. But ... isnt murder just wrong and you shouldnt do it anyway? BECAUSE its wrong and hurts someone?
Stealing is against the law and punishable by imprisonment.... but.... isnt stealing morally wrong anyway? taking something that doesnt belong to you? its Kindergarten stuff!! and yet we have to make LAWS to tell people not to do those things... but people still doing them anyway = free will.

and.. my family has a strong "alcoholic gene" as you call it.... we have a good deal of Native American blood in us too... countered by a LOT of Irish/Welsh.... sooooo... what would that make me ? constantly at war with myself? i can just imagine me getting into a fight with myself... bringing the bottle to my lips while the other hand pushed it away....

ORIGINAL: sierra2002

It is possible that some "supreme being" determined our futures at the beginning of time - when humans first walked the Earth.

I think that's what most Pentacostals believe (I could be wrong, please correct me if I'm wrong). I'm Christian (not Pentacostal) and when I was introduced to that belief my reaction was: Then what's the point? I understand the whole "God is outside of time" argument, but I'm not comfortable with the feeling that my life was determined by the roll of the dice at the beginning of time.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

True free will does not exist. 

Each person is the sum of their experiences and those experiences colour their perspectives.  Part of those experiences are the learned wisdom and teachings of those that preceded them. 

Therefore the choices that one makes are not choices of free will, but rather the appearance of free will which is based entirely upon one's perspective.

 
I don't get how being the sum of your experiences means you don't have free will.  Certainly the sum of your experiences will color your perspective on the reasonabless of choices, but that doesn't mean those choices do not exist, or that you cannot take them.  Some people, despite good genes and background make bad choices.
 
If you define "free will" as "without any forces acting against" a person making a choice, then of course there's no such thing as free will....but that's a definition of free will that defeats the concept from inception.

 

ORIGINAL: DumDog

but in the regards to atheists... they chose that route. even if their parents were devout catholics, their kid still chose to break away and NOT participate. Now to participate and not want to disrespect the parents for fear of being judged or hurting their feelings is, to me, an absence of free will.

Your post had several points, but I think I can address this aspect because this you basically described me. My parents are both active christians.. my siblings are too.
But I am athiest.
It can be said, however, that I did not choose to become athiest. My lack of belief resulted from my university education (in specific, philosophy classes) which made me believe that there is no other explanation for our world.
I did not, therefore, freely choose, without influence, to become athiest. My environment (ie. my professors) caused the action of becoming athiest.
If it were not for my external environment (of which I have no control) I would still be christian.

I hope this makes sense. I'm trying my best to explain myself, which can be difficult. And I'm also trying not to put my foot in my mouth [8D] lol


I think Xerxes explains himself much better than I do. But, as he explained in his last post, our "decisions" can be boiled down to biology (including genetics) and environment.

So if someone held a gun to your head.. what would your choices be? And, what would you do? Perhaps it might help to talk out this specific situation

 
Great example and one that we can use to explore the concept of Free Will quite well.
 
You basically have two choices:  Comply or Don't Comply.
 
The decision will be based upon several factors, each of them external to the individual placed in that situation.
 
Comply:  "I want to live."  "I don't want this person to hurt my children/dog/loved ones."  "Possessions aren't important."  "Perhaps I can help this person." 
 
Don't Comply:  "I won't give this guy the satisfaction."  "I'm going to call his bluff."  "I can take him."
 
It's all about perspective.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

So if someone held a gun to your head.. what would your choices be? And, what would you do? Perhaps it might help to talk out this specific situation

Great example and one that we can use to explore the concept of Free Will quite well.

You basically have two choices:  Comply or Don't Comply.

The decision will be based upon several factors, each of them external to the individual placed in that situation.

Comply:  "I want to live."  "I don't want this person to hurt my children/dog/loved ones."  "Possessions aren't important."  "Perhaps I can help this person." 

Don't Comply:  "I won't give this guy the satisfaction."  "I'm going to call his bluff."  "I can take him."

It's all about perspective.

 
I still think that you're operating on an unfair definition of free will.  If I'm understanding you correctly, your point is that if you choose any of the choices listed above you're still not exercising free will.  By your definition of free will, the decision to take a step, because it is influenced by the fact that you see there is solid ground in front of you and that past experiences tell you ground will hold your weight, is not an exercise in free will.  Then your definition of 'free will' is an empty concept.  Or am I misunderstanding you?

Then your definition of 'free will' is an empty concept. Or am I misunderstanding you?

 
If that is the case, give me an example of your idea of Free Will.

Well, I haven't thought about this enough to have my own definition, but I think the only way that you can discuss free will so that it has any meaning is to talk about it in terms of determinism.  In other words, I agree that everything that has happened to you or that genetically or physically makes you up shapes your perspective on the choices you have...but the question is whether you actually have those choices.  For example, at a fork in the road, will your past experiences dictate that you go left, or can you choose to go left or right?  In other words, is it predetermined that you will go left.
 
I think we have free will in that we can still make the choices that we have presented in front of us...for example, I choose not to drink tonight...but I don't think that's determined by external forces...I could choose to drink if I would like.  Sure my perspective shapes the choices I have, but I still have those choices, and I exercise my free will in determining which to choose.

I have freedom/free will, but not Freedom of the Will (that's will with a capital "W").  There is a big difference.

I love Jonathan Edwards.  Possibly my favorite theologian.  Yes, I'm a theology nerd.

Sure my perspective shapes the choices I have, but I still have those choices, and I exercise my free will in determining which to choose.

 
That's the way I view free will too. If someone pushes me off the ledge, I have no choice but to drop.  If I step off the ledge, I have made a choice.  If the building is on fire, then it may been what seemed like the best choice, but it's still a choice.  We debated this in my philosophy class and it made my head hurt [>:].

Sure my perspective shapes the choices I have, but I still have those choices, and I exercise my free will in determining which to choose.

And that is precisely the appearance of Free Will that I am referring to.[]