Help me please, need advice

Right, this is loooong, but bear with me, or just skip straight to the end (the quote) because that's something I don't think anyone else has brought up yet and I think it's valid.  If you suffer from insomnia, read right through!
 
I think that the age at which anyone is mature enough to marry is irrelevant.  Nowadays the trend is to leave marriage until LATER (there was a piece on the news about it just a few nights ago) and YET the divorce rate is higher than it has ever been.  Some people are not mature enough to marry at 30, others have successful marriages from the age of 16!  Most old couples who are still together today married quite young - whether these have been "successful" marriages depends on your definition of "a successful marriage" but many claim to a lifetime of happiness with that person..... I am sure many have not been happy and perhaps these "statistics" are skewed because divorce was not so easy to go ahead and do in days gone by.... but we digress.
 
Generally speaking I do agree that during the last years of your teens you do change as a person dramatically and it is better to wait until you have passed this stage.  I also think immaturity is NO excuse for infidelity, I wouldn't do this to my boyfriends when I was in my mid teens because I was stronger than that and had better morals and principals than that and I expect my other half to have the same hard line stance on the issue.
 
I am so sorry you have been faced with this ..... It's a horrible situation to be in, I was in a similar one once and I took the decision to leave because I knew I would never feel the same way about that person again.... I would not ever trust them again and I knew that the temptation to hold their transgression over them could well be too strong for me to deny in the heat of future arguments which would just cause resentment......  Maybe the reason I broke it off was as much for my own weaknesses as his?  I would like to think it was my "hard line stance" on fidelity and my age that swayed the decision.  I couldn't help thinking that staying with him after he had committed such a grievous sin (that's what it is to me) is excusing it and I did not want to give him the impression that such behaviour was excusable.  But maybe if I were 50 and discovered my other half were unfaithful 20 or 30 years ago perhaps my decision would not be the same......? 
 
If you want to stay with this guy, I think if I were you I think I would offer an amnesty.  I would want to know if there were any other times he had been unfaithful and when it happened.  Complete honesty and truth.  Then see if you can wipe the slate clean and start over - making it clear that if you get a SNIFTER of any more trangressions (from now on or ones that happened in the past that he has not divulged) you'll be done and finished with the relationship.  I'd make that very very clear.  And then you have a hard job to do - get past the sick feeling, the betrayal, learn to trust him again and not hold this thing over his head, try not to be paranoid any time your back is turned or he is out late...... if you feel you're up to that, then I have to admire you for your strength and belief in yourself and your r'ship..... but I would also make it clear to him just how hard those things will be and tell him he will have to bear with you and help you to learn to trust him again, he is the one that damaged that trust in the 1st place.....
 
One thing is really not sitting well with me here.
 

  He says he doesnt really recall doing that after we were married but believes it, as he says hes sure she remembers it all better than he does.  He says he has never done anything like that with anyone else and never would.  That he wanted to tell me but didnt know how... all this stuff. 

 
This just doesn't sound right.  Surely this is such a grievous sin, to betray the one you love dearly, that you can't possibly "not remember"?????  And if he "can't remember" this one, how many others may have "slipped his mind" - how can he be so sure he hasn't done this with anyone else?  It just doesn;t add up to me.  Sorry.

I mean absolutely NO offense to anyone who is in their late teens, early 20's but from experience I really have to agree with a couple things that Billy stated. 
 
 

A couple of years ago my 19 year old (at the time) step daughter was talking about getting married. This boy was about to join the Army. Present, as we were trying to talk the kids out of getting married, were me, my wife, the boy's mother and the Army recruiter. Every one of us (exclusive of the kids) had married at a young age and every one of us was divorced. Now a sample of 4 might not be statistically significant but still, that represents a 100% failure rate.

 
A sample of 3 is NOT a large sample size either but let me add that it is the same here… DH was 19 and in bootcamp when he got the call from his dad that his girlfriend (18 and in HS still) was pregnant. SO they got married and managed to last a little over 10 years…   AND they only lasted that long because he was on a submarine for 7 of those years.
 
My stepson announced a few days after he FINISHED bootcamp (at 19 years of age) that he was getting married (to a woman that none of us even knew about). WE TRIED so hard to convince him to wait, but since he was living in one part of the country and she in the other and he only had leave over the holidays we could not convince him to wait.  They were divorce before he turned 22…
 
IMO, My mother and father had no business getting married when they did since neither one had really ever dated (thank god they did or I wouldn't be here, but that is a different topic). My father was not prepared for life and the responsibility of being a father and wanted to still be leading the "single life" (or more accurately wanted to be with another woman) so he left shortly after I was born. Perhaps if they had waited I personally would not be typing this right now, BUT maybe they would be happily married to eachother given more time to figure life out...
 

  If getting married is the right thing to do at 19, it will be right at 25.  However, the vast majority of the time, if you wait until you are 25, you won't want to marry the same person you were considering at 19. 

 
this statement can't be more true and as hard as it is to wait when you feel you are in love and you are convinced you have found your soulmate... a little time and growth during some very important years can really give you a different perspective.

Age and the time it happened aside, he lied to you.
My SO had trouble about a month ago, and untimately split up for a week. He slept with another girl. He would have never told me. WHen we got back together I notice a hickey on his neck and that is how I found out. He swore up and down they had only kissed. I asked him at least 20 times if anything else happened. He said no everytime. Mind you, I was asking him when we WERE together. A friend of ours later told me that he did, infact, sleep with her. He would have never ever ever told me. & To an extent, I understand why. He didn't want to hurt me over something that didnt mean anything  to him. But, the trust is still broken. I completely forgave him when I found out they had kissed. I gave him no impression whatsoever that I would have freaked out if he had told me the truth. I never said a harsh word to him. But he still lied. I guess it's human nature to watch out for yourself before you think about someone else. Maybe he didn't want to burden you with the feelings it would cause you to have, or maybe he values your relationship too much to let it get messed up over something that didn't mean anything to him. I don't know. I can't decide what I would do if I were you because I don't know what I'm doing myself. I forgive my SO for it, but the trust IS shakey now. But I do think about it every single day.  I agree that you should hold off on the baby, though. A lie is a lie and thats something you need to work through with him. Ask him why he lied, and talk to him about how you both feel. I'm sure he had a guilty concious(sp) and he was torn up about it for a while, too. I feel like I'm rambling at this point, and I don't know if I even said anything worth reading. Just wanted to you know that you do have a support group here, and many of us know and can relate to how this feels. I'm really sorry. It's hard feeling like you can't trust someone you love.

I think that the only reason age appears to be a factor is because of the changing times - I do think that many young people today do not approach marriage with the sincere "for better for worse" attitude that people did in days gone by.  Getting married young is FINE - provided you appreciate that marriage is not a fairy tale.  You may not love that person in 10  or 20 years, but love is only a relatively small part of marriage - it is also based on trust, communication and, at times, HARD WORK and sacrifices, eg. putting someone else before yourself and not going and sleeping with someone you fancy sleeping with - not because you LOVE someone else but because you are vowed elsewhere....  Hardly anyone seems to take that vow seriously anymore.  Marriage is not about a declaration of love.  It is about a legally binding contract. 

Even though it may have meant nothing to him, it might mean everything to her and that's what he should have thought of. He was inconsiderate. He didn't THINK about you, your feelings or your relationship. That's a problem.
 
And while I agree with what Billy is saying about the immaturity factor, I still don't think it is an excuse for what he did. He was immature, yes, but it was still wrong. I'm only 25 and by no means consider myself to have "matured" yet, but I do agree that compared to when I was 19, I'm a completely different person today. However, at 19, I knew what it meant to cheat on someone. I knew it was wrong, I knew I wouldn't do it, I knew it would hurt the other person and damage or end the relationship so I knew I would never take that chance. I think he knew these things too. He had the self-control at age 19 to leave the other girl alone.
 
 

Don't get me wrong. I agree whole heartedly that immaturity is not an excuse at all. and not wanting to hurt her is NOT an excuse for lying to her. just a possible explanation. IMO lying at anytime is wrong. lying by ommision is wrong. Cheating, is most definitely! wrong. I wasn't excusing his behaviour, just trying to offer a reason why he wouldn't want to tell her, although I think he should have.

ORIGINAL: UndefinedMelody

Don't get me wrong. I agree whole heartedly that immaturity is not an excuse at all. and not wanting to hurt her is NOT an excuse for lying to her. just a possible explanation. IMO lying at anytime is wrong. lying by ommision is wrong. Cheating, is most definitely! wrong. I wasn't excusing his behaviour, just trying to offer a reason why he wouldn't want to tell her, although I think he should have.

 
I wasn't disagreeing with you. [] I'm sorry if you thought I was arguing with you. In fact, I agree with most everything you said in your original email. [] A lie is a lie and they need to talk about this. And I agree that he may not have told her because he it meant nothing to him, but all I was saying was that it should mean something to him since it meant something to her. I think we all agree that he is definitely in the wrong here. He screwed up.
 
Amy, I think you just need to decide if you can work through this. Right now, it probably is really fresh and the feelings are raw. I don't think there is a wrong answer here and none of us can make this decision for you. If you work things out, that's not the wrong thing to do. If you walk away, that's not wrong either. The only one who did anything wrong here is him. You just need to be honest with yourself about who you are, who you think he is, and where your relationship is currently at. Things are always different when you're married so just leaving is not as easy as it may be if you weren't married. Not that it's ever easy to walk away, but marriage makes it more complicated to do so, IMO.
 
 

This could possibly be another thread, but where does one cut one's losses and say"Enough is Enough", how much is one supposed to put up with, where does one draw the line?

One draws the line, IMO when the trust can not ever be brought back. If your partner has cheated on you, and you feel that you can work through it and trust again, then go for it. You loved them before they cheated, and you love them still after. It really comes down to trust, to me.
Also, I would draw the line when things were being done deliberately(or seemingly so) to hurt me. For example, if your partner cheats, and you feel like you can trust them again, and you work through it, and then they do it again, and again, etc. The first time it was your fault, I can forgive you, the second time it was my fault for believing you could change, and I walk away. Or something like that.

It's so easy to try to give someone an answer when you aren't actually going through it, but when put in the situation, everything you said you would do doesn't really matter because the decision is often made based on fresh and raw painful emotions. I guess what I'm trying to say is, the OP only knows in her heart what she needs to do. And everything we are saying to her, while supportive, really doesn't factor in the decsion. I know if it were me, I would only listen to the answers I wanted to hear, and argue with the ones I didn't. And even then, my heart might not know what I wanted to do. One day I may feel like I could work though it, and then a week later, I may feel like I got in over my head trying to forgive and move on. It is a hard thing to go through. Sorry for rambling, this just hits close to home.
 
[edited for typos, I'm making a lot of them today!]

At the risk of sounding like an old fossil here, I can also say I've 'been there'.  In fact, 10 years AFTER I finally booted his butt out, I'm still find out about past indescretions -- things that were COMMON KNOWLEDGE to others, that weren't to me.
 
Someone said something that he (and we're talking about more than one fella who slept around while either 'mad' at her or in the early stages of marriage) didn't want to say anything about something that "didn't mean anything to him".
 
That right there is the entire thing in a nutshell.
 
At the risk of quoting Strother Martin in Cool Hand Luke "what we got here is a failure to communicate".
 
And honestly it's probably not going to change.
 
Because? 
 
Because sex outside of the relationship obviously just isn't as important to him as it is to her.  Sounds like these guys just don't have the same basic frame of reference you gals do.
 
That's probably not going to change.
 
A lot of people (and this isn't a guy thing or a girl thing -- it's an individual thing) begin and end everything about this with how they 'feel' about themselves.  They get tempted to ... shoot, 'tempt' implies they know it's wrong, and I'm not sure 'right' and 'wrong' even enters into it.  WANT and their own perceived 'need' simply supercedes all else, the brain freezes and they don't even make a choice.  They just take the path that presents itself that feeds their need of the moment.
 
My ex used to use the excuse that certain things made him "feel more like a man" -- and that included any sexual opportunity that presented itself.  The fact that he was (he thot) 'desired' by someone else actually made him feel more secure.  I must be hot if OTHER women want me, hence it's going to make ME feel better.  It's usually not about any sort of love or commitment to the other person.  It's about ... "me". 
 
Therein lies the problem -- it's not going to go away.  It's probably going to repeat.  Those of us who have 'been there/done that' can testify to it.
 
You can't 'trust' someone who just plain doesn't share the same moral values you do.  It's just plain not a 'starter'. 
 
I spent ten years of my life trying to 'repair' a marriage like this one.  Because he kept promising to do what he knew I considered important.  Altho what he PROMISED was "to change" or "I'll never do that again" or "how could you THINK I'd do that again?"
 
But really -- he was promising what he thot I wanted.  Not out of any belief of his own that he was wrong ... only to pacify me (because he didn't want a 'failed' relationship on his back either -- that would have gone under the 'make me feel like less of a man' column in his mind so avoiding that was paramout so promise anything!)
 
I felt obligated that as long as he "wanted to change" I thot I had to give him the chance. 
 
I was stupid because I wasn't looking at reality -- I looked at what I wanted to believe.
 
Most men who cheat never get caught -- why?  Because they're so smart?  NO.  Because we don't *want* to catch them.  We don't want to think they will 'hurt' us, we don't want to think that the relationship is that meaningless to them and we don't want to admit that there is a total lack of real understanding on either person's part as to what makes that other person tick, what is foundational (good or bad, what IS that person truly like) and integral to happiness.
 
The commitment has to be there from the beginning. The commitment has to be greater than anything else -- if that basis of "I'm going to do what I said I'd do NO MATTER WHAT" isn't part of the deal, then there's no true reason to avoid temptation. 
 
And frankly folks -- infidelity is a small part of it.  It is the top of the cake -- because the real slammers of life are much deeper and darker and harder.  Financial difficulties, death of a child or loved one, illness (of one of you two or another family member) -- man, if you can't stick together thru sexual temptation I don't know how people have a clue that they can handle the worst life has to offer.  Because you HAVE TO think so highly of that other person that you wouldn't stray JUST BECAUSE it would hurt them beyond belief.  It can't be an option or it *will be*. 
 
I can't tell you folks what to do.  I *can* tell you how incredibly stupid I felt after pouring the ten best years of my life down the toilet for a man who made a royal fool of me all ten years.  I had clues and feelings but felt obligated to try because I was stronger and should be able to 'help' him.
 
Whatta crock.  I was an idiot.  Frankly the hardest part of divorce for me was coming to grips with the reality of what an idiot I'd been.  I picked the anal-retentive son of a pup.  I CHOSE HIM.  I stayed with him thru countless chances.  Then to thank me he stalked me after I booted him out (he wanted what he couldn't have quite simply). 
 
I made it my mission to get mentally healthy after I kicked his sorry behind out.  Then at the time of my life when I least expected it, I met David. 
 
I was not quite 10 years with the worthless idiot.  Now I've been with David for 10 years.  Every day brings deeper love.  Every day brings more gladness that we both put the other one first.  As bad as the first was ... the second brings me immeasurable gladness.
 
Luck?  I don't believe in luck.  David and I don't have 'normal' lives -- because we're pretty brutally honest with each other about what matters to us.  We don't even HAVE cable because it's not what we choose to spend our time on.  But we spend our money on things we do care about.  That doesn't mean others should emulate us -- I simply mean we've dared to be different I guess. 
 
I'm just glad I ended it with my ex in time to recover mental stability and be around when David was there.  I'll forever kick myself for being so devoted to someone who couldn't have cared less for me.  That says a load about MY self respect.
 
So if you are one of the people making decisions here -- please take the time to be brutally honest with yourself.  Reality bites.  But it's all we've got.  Wasting time chasing a forever that just won't happen .... every minute that is gone is forever gone. 
 

Callie--Although definitely true, that sure is depressing to think about. [&:] I think girls/women by human nature have the urge to want to fix and mend other people, quite often before they fix or mend themselves. 
I know it was a long time ago and you're happy now but don't feel like an idiot for it. You poured your heart and soul into something, even though he was undeserving, it's still commendable on your part that you tried so hard to make it work. Too often these days, people are very quick to not try at all, and just give up. And while I know that you are better without him, I still think it's good that you made sure instead of having a "what if I had tried to work through it" thought. I hope I'm making any kind of sense at all. I really have too much free time today.[]

The first 2-4 years yes.  "commendable" -- but the pits just got deeper and worse.  And I'm not sure I can put my finger on exactly where "commendable" degenerates into "gullible" and from there "too stuck in my own fear of failure to admit to stupidity". 
 
I've learned a LOT.  Yes, I'm a better person ... yes, I'm smarter.  But as always, I wish like heck someone would look at MY mistakes and mitigate their own damages. 
 
2 weeks ago I got this phone call (remember I got the house in the divorce - my money paid for ALL of it -- my three jobs at a time)

"Hi, is Bill there?"
 
"he hasn't lived here in 11 years.  Thank goodness.  And no, I don't know where he is nor do I care"
 
"Oh -- well I was in a bullemia treatment program with him about 13 years ago"
 
"I remember you". 
 
As the conversation went on -- she was simply looking to find someone who knew something about this part of Florida and I was gracious enough to answer her question.  I remembered her -- she was a good friend with a woman I suspected *later* had an affair with my husband while he was in treatment (the insurance from one of my 3 jobs paid for it). 
 
yep, she confirmed it -- very well known that they slept together while in this rehab program and ... later on. 
 
It kinda brought it all around full circle to me again.  By that time I was in the 'I didn't want to know' phase.  THAT is beyond the 'commendable' stage, and beyond "gullible" too. 
 
But maybe this too is good for folks to read.  People's patterns repeat ... when they are just living a lie to pacify someone else -- it all repeats.  It's so hard to make true deep personality changes.  Now that I look back on it (particularly with a good man and HIS changes to compare it all to) I should have known far earlier -- because altho it wasn't "in my face" a decision to be faithful should have made huge huge huge changes in our entire relationship.  There were a few weeks/months of "better".  But not enormous changes.
 
Now I know ...
 
 

No way!  I can't believe him.  What a freakin' nerve these guys have.
 
Amy, part of me wants to say to you take the dog and get away from him.  I've seen the pictures of yourself that you've posted and you don't need to put up with this kind of crap. 

But, then on the other hand I've watched too much Dr. Phil.  And, I know it wouldn't be easy to walk away from a five year marriage.  So, if it were me, I'd probably try to work things out with counseling and putting the kids on hold.  At least if it doesn't work out in the end you can say you gave it a 100% effort to save the relationship.  But, he needs to take responsiblity for what he did and also for what he didn't do in not telling you.

Whatever you decide, good luck.  And, PM if you'd like to.
Lori[]

Oh, how awful, I'm sorry Amy!
 
It pains me to say this but I have to agree with Billy. Age is a big factor in this scenario. Nineteen is young, oh lord so young. I'm only 28 and I can tell you I am NOT the person I was at 19. (I'm also not marrying the person I was bound & determined to marry at 19 either!) I wouldn't say that your age means you shouldn't be married... but rather that it might be a reason to forgive the infidelity and move on if he has matured and you feel you want to make it work. I truly don't think "once a cheater always a cheater" applies to teenagers. I agree that marriage counseling and postponement of the baby plans would be wise.
 
I also question the motives of the girl who called you out of the blue. Since she is but a distant friend I highly doubt she was eaten up with guilt to the point of needing to confess... even if that were true, all these years later it would be incredibly selfish of her. I think more likely she wants to stir up some drama, and/or meddle w you and your DH in some way.

oh wow,  i know how horrible you must feel right now, honesty is a big thing for me too and having it betrayed by the closest person to you is the absolute worst. for me, this would be unforgiveable, if some one is careless enough to do this once, it is my opinion that they are highly capable, even likely, to do it again. age, length of the relationship, etc, don't matter to me when it comes to trust and my loved ones, once it's broken it is hard to re-establish. i have found in my own marriage that if there is no trust, there is no security or stability, which are crucial, especially if there are/will-be kids involved (and i thought i could stick it out through thick and thin and all that stuff, lately i've been wavering). constantly wondering can make one neurotic, which is no way to live.

i hope you find the right decision, do what you feel is right and makes you the most comfortable, and definitely do not forget that we are here for you