Spinoff discussion on religion from the "saving" thread

I have one thing to say, and I'm going to dance around all silly while I say it:

"Jehovah! Jehovah Jehovah Jehovah!"

(I hope you all don't have any rocks in your pockets....[])







Note: if you aren't into Monty Python, this will make no sense.

I grew up in the Lutheran Church and was baptised as an infant. I think it's pretty standard for Lutherans

 
Oh yay, so I'm not crazy. I just couldn't imagine that Catholics were the only ones who tried to drown their babies. []
 
Totally kidding of course, but funny story. My little cousin was a little under 2 when he was baptized Catholic. I don't remember why they did it so late, but I know it was a terrible idea, and everyone learned a lesson that day. The poor kid YELLED the entire time "I don't want that! No! I don't want it! No! No! No!" it was awful...but just so darn funny. [8D]

ORIGINAL: ron2

OTOH, you could spend your life doing good deads, helping the needy, be a true asset to humanity and the planet and still not get to heaven because of a legal detail.

Legal detail? Do you mean accepting Jesus into your life? My beliefs are that Jesus died for our sins, so to not accept him is a real slap in the face to someone who you owe your salvation. Again, those are my beliefs.

As far as the disussion about being able to go out and rape and steal everyday and still going to heaven as long as you ask for forgiveness... what I've been taught is that you have to TRULY repent and that means turning away from your sins- not indulging in them and just saying "oops, sorry about that".

I am of the opinion that concepts such as heaven and hell exist only for the people who believe in them.  If I believed that when I die I will go to heaven (or hell) that would make me a religious person.....the idea that you can be not religious and still go to heaven is incompatible to me.  I don't believe that Jesus died for my sins because again, I don't believe in Jesus.  The idea that he will "save" me "anyway" is to me personally kind of silly - it makes a mockery of those people who spend their lives following a religious doctrine. 
 
I am much more spiritual than I am religious...I have never felt any kind of religious calling and it's unlikely that I ever will.  I am comfortable with that because NOT being religious is the most logical thing given what I do believe.  (Yes, atheists have beliefs too...they just aren't beliefs in a god.)
 
I have no issue with religion or the practising of said...I think in many cases religion offers a kind of structure in people's lives which is a very valuable thing.  For believers, religion offers hope, comfort, a spirit of community and countless other benefits.  I think those are good things.  I know people who have those things without the conduit of religion to provide them - I think that's good too.
 
In general, I am in favour of anything that helps a person lead a good, satisfying life, gets them through the rough nights, gives them a friend when they need it, helps them be a good friend in return, shows them how to depend on someone when it's necessary, and how to be dependable when someone else is the one in need.  If that's organised religion, great.  If that's worshipping an artichoke, that's great.  If that's just the way a person naturally is...great too.  The only thing I cannot accept is the idea that there is one answer for everybody.
 
Kate

AMEN KATE!!  (sorry had to do it)  []

ORIGINAL: melindar

AMEN KATE!!  (sorry had to do it)  []

 
LOL!
 

The idea that he will "save" me "anyway" is to me personally kind of silly - it makes a mockery of those people who spend their lives following a religious doctrine

 
The crucifixion is based on the idea of sacrifice of the innocent to pay for the sins of the guilty. Humans kill God in the flesh and then he accepts them if they accept it as a sacrifice of an innocent and partake of symbolistic cannibalism. "Eat this bread as if it were my body, drink this wine as if it were my blood."

Ron - I get the theory behind it, I am just saying that to me it makes no sense.  *Most* organised religions, and denominations of such, state that a member has to live his life in such-and-such a way in order to go to heaven.  So in theory those people lead religious lives according to those "rules", die, go to heaven and basically get told that all those people who *didn't* follow the "rules" make it in to heaven anyway.  It is especially illogical to me since those people (such as myself) who don't live their lives according to any religious doctrine aren't looking to get into heaven.  So basically all of those religious people did all that "work" for no greater reward than what anybody else got. 
 
As silly as this may sound from an athiest, I think heaven, or the comfort that the concept provides, should be reserved for the people who make the effort, because the ones that don't aren't looking for it.  I derive no reassurance whatsoever from the idea of heaven - I get my comfort and inspiration from elsewhere.  If heaven mattered to me, I'd be following a religion.
 
Kate

ORIGINAL: g33
  If you believe in Jesus Christ, continue to commit sins and continually repent and struggle with your failure to stop sinning, you will still be accepted into heaven. 

 
Cool.  Count me in.  []

ORIGINAL: g33

A lot of catholic church doctrine was constructed by papal authority to raise money for the church (as in, pay me $$$ and I'll pray that dead baby of yours that you never baptised, gets into heaven instead of spending eternity in purgatory). 

 
Mmmm i dont know but as a Catholic person the church never ask me any kind of money, however i know some Christian churches that ask to the people to "donate" 10% of their paychecks every month to be able to "belong" to that particular church.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: g33

A lot of catholic church doctrine was constructed by papal authority to raise money for the church (as in, pay me $$$ and I'll pray that dead baby of yours that you never baptised, gets into heaven instead of spending eternity in purgatory). 

Mmmm i dont know but as a Catholic person the church never ask me any kind of money, however i know some Christian churches that ask to the people to "donate" 10% of their paychecks every month to be able to "belong" to that particular church.

Mormons pay 10 percent of their earnings to the church -- we call it the "law of tithing."  It's not actually a requirement, but it's the only way one will receive a temple recommend. 

Also, we fast on the first Sunday of each month.  So, for example, tomorrow is Fast Sunday.  I, along with other devout members, will not eat or drink (except for partaking of the sacrament) until later in the evening.  I will then write a check to the church as a fast offering -- The amount of money I would spend for breakfast and lunch.  The church uses fast offering funds for helping the needy and stocking food pantries and such.  It was very handy when Hurricane Katrina hit, because the church was on the scene with food, water, and supples, all of which came to be through the fast offering funds.

ORIGINAL: chelsea_b

Oh yay, so I'm not crazy. I just couldn't imagine that Catholics were the only ones who tried to drown their babies. []

Totally kidding of course, but funny story. My little cousin was a little under 2 when he was baptized Catholic. I don't remember why they did it so late, but I know it was a terrible idea, and everyone learned a lesson that day. The poor kid YELLED the entire time "I don't want that! No! I don't want it! No! No! No!" it was awful...but just so darn funny. [8D]

 
Not to hijack - but when DS #2 was  baptized, we were attending services at the UCD Newman Center.  The priest was rather progressive and decided to do a baptism by immersion instead of just sprinkling holy water on his head.  He put a baby bathtub on the altar, and dipped him stark naked down into warm water, and then held him  up to the congregation.  And of course, he peed on the priest. [] But anybody holding naked baby boy front side up and dipping him into warm water would have expected that.
 
Joyce

""donate" 10% of their paychecks every month to be able to "belong" to that particular church."

My mother was raised catholic, the church told her after we were born that she had to donate 10% to the church or we couldn't be baptized, my mother could hardly put food in our mouths and then the church wanted what little extra she had? Yeap, what a great way to win over the poor ignorant masses.
Seems like another way of control to me...
 
I don't understand something though, if you don't follow this guys list of 10 rules, you will, burn, suffer pain fire damnation smoke for ever and ever and ever....but he loves you???? And he's always broke and needs money....Some all powerful invisible man that can send you to a place where you suffer forever and ever if you don't do what he or someone else interprets as the "thing" to do, (they still love you though)  but he always seems to be broke and needing money.
 
 

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: g33

A lot of catholic church doctrine was constructed by papal authority to raise money for the church (as in, pay me $$$ and I'll pray that dead baby of yours that you never baptised, gets into heaven instead of spending eternity in purgatory). 

Mmmm i dont know but as a Catholic person the church never ask me any kind of money, however i know some Christian churches that ask to the people to "donate" 10% of their paychecks every month to be able to "belong" to that particular church.

Maybe it's not done so much in the modern day (I agree, I have attended Catholic services as much of my family is Catholic and we have never been asked for money), but I believe those things used to occur back in the day.