Spinoff discussion on religion from the "saving" thread

So, as long as I accept Christ as my Savior, yada yada yada, I can have all the affairs I want, steal to meet my every need, snort an 8 ball a day and kill every cop who tries to stop me and still I can get into heaven?
 
Where do I sign up?

Well, that's where the whole sanctification process comes in. []   If you truly accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, there are patterns of your life that you will give up - and give up more easily than you thought you could. 
 
There are many true Christians that I know who have had periods of time where they have "fallen".  My husband has a particularly sordid and scary story.  The point is that God is a gracious and loving God, and He loves us.  If we ask for forgiveness, He will always grant it.  I believe in these cases that God allows us to walk down these paths because He ultimately knows a greater glory will come out of it. 

ORIGINAL: g33
Well, that's where the whole sanctification process comes in. []   If you truly accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, there are patterns of your life that you will give up - and give up more easily than you thought you could. 

 
But even though I accept Jesus as my Savior, I am still not without sin, right?  I am still going to continue to sin, right?

My husband has a particularly sordid and scary story. 

 
Details please.  []
 

 If we ask for forgiveness, He will always grant it.

 
So I can continue to rape and pillage and as long as I ask God to forgive me, I will get into heaven?
 
Let's say I rape and pillage every day, but every night, I ask God to forgive me.  If I die during the night, will I go to heaven?
 
Let's say I rape and pillage every day and ask God to forgive me every night.  However after a day of raping and pillaging, I die of a heart attack before I can ask God to forgive me for that day's transgressions.  Will I go to heaven?
 

But even though I accept Jesus as my Savior, I am still not without sin, right?  I am still going to continue to sin, right? So I can continue to rape and pillage and as long as I ask God to forgive me, I will get into heaven?

Let's say I rape and pillage every day, but every night, I ask God to forgive me.  If I die during the night, will I go to heaven?

Let's say I rape and pillage every day and ask God to forgive me every night.  However after a day of raping and pillaging, I die of a heart attack before I can ask God to forgive me for that day's transgressions.  Will I go to heaven?

 
Paul describes this quandary best in Romans chaptes 5 and 6:
 
Romans 5
 
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
[What Paul is saying here is that the Law exists so that we are aware of our capacity to sin.  We all break laws every day, whether it is speeding or taking a ream of paper from our offices, or swearing, or being jealous of someone else.  It's just in our DNA.  So where we believe in God, His grace increases to forgive us for these sins.]
Romans 6
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
 1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[[linkhttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28060a]a[/link]] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
 8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
 19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[[linkhttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28077b]b[/link]] Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
 
In answering your question, the question that I have is, what is the heart of a person who professes a belief in Christ with their lips and yet continues to lead a life of sin?  You simply cannot just "say" you believe and ask for forgiveness as some kind of "get out of hell free" pass.  What is the condition of your heart?  Only God knows.  The bible says that we will know the quality of our heart by the fruit that we bear in the world.  If someone professes a belief in Christ and yet continues to rape, murder, steal, etc. - they are not bearing good fruit and I would question whether or not that person truly believes in Christ. 
 
I know it is hard for non-Christians to understand, but there is an undeniable power of the holy spirit to transform one's soul that happens at salvation.  I didn't even realize some of the things I was doing, that I needed to transform in my life - and my life altered totally from the path I was on at that moment. 

So I can continue to rape and pillage and as long as I ask God to forgive me, I will get into heaven?

Let's say I rape and pillage every day, but every night, I ask God to forgive me.  If I die during the night, will I go to heaven?

Let's say I rape and pillage every day and ask God to forgive me every night.  However after a day of raping and pillaging, I die of a heart attack before I can ask God to forgive me for that day's transgressions.  Will I go to heaven?

 
I find this a dilemma myself.  How can people, let's say someone like Charles Manson, ask for forgiveness for the horrible things he did and still get into heaven?
 
When I attended church regularly, the people explained that if one admits he did wrong and asks for forgiveness, he will get into heaven, but that there are different "levels" that one is allowed to enter depending on the way he lived his whole life.  So if you keep sinning and asking for forgiveness but don't change your patterns, then you won't be on the same level as Mother Teresa.
 
Now, I am a Presbyterian who once regularly attended churches of that branch of faith, as well as United Methodist, and a Catholic church.  I had the most difficult time with the teachings of the Catholic church regarding sin and pennance - I saw it more like the scenario Billy posed, that it's okay to sin, repent, sin, repent forever. 
 
I dunno.  I sometimes had difficulty with the sermons because it comes down to another person who is "in charge" of the church interpreting the Bible and telling the congregation "this is the meaning". 

ORIGINAL: g33

But even though I accept Jesus as my Savior, I am still not without sin, right?  I am still going to continue to sin, right? So I can continue to rape and pillage and as long as I ask God to forgive me, I will get into heaven?

Let's say I rape and pillage every day, but every night, I ask God to forgive me.  If I die during the night, will I go to heaven?

Let's say I rape and pillage every day and ask God to forgive me every night.  However after a day of raping and pillaging, I die of a heart attack before I can ask God to forgive me for that day's transgressions.  Will I go to heaven?

Paul describes this quandary best in Romans chaptes 5 and 6:

Romans 5

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
[What Paul is saying here is that the Law exists so that we are aware of our capacity to sin.  We all break laws every day, whether it is speeding or taking a ream of paper from our offices, or swearing, or being jealous of someone else.  It's just in our DNA.  So where we believe in God, His grace increases to forgive us for these sins.]
Romans 6
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[[linkhttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28060a]a[/link]] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
 19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[[linkhttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28077b]b[/link]] Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

Well i'm sure that if the bikini was invented during the years the Bible was written then wearing a bikini would be a sin too []

I find all the Abrahamic faiths to be exclusionary and unbending in their acceptance of the differences of others. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is primarily a Protestant Christian belief, and the Catholics feel differently. In Catholism it's still about your "works" and not just your faith. That was one of the issues that Martin Luther had with Catholicism and that's one difference between these branches of Christianity. Catholics and Protestants both believe that you'll always sin again. Man is an inveterate sinner and that's just a fact.  But the Catholic church places a lot of emphasis on trying not to "sin again"--performing works of charity and leading a selfless Christ-like life. In Protestantism, the line is "salvation by faith" not by works. One must only profess a belief in Jesus Christ as one's lord and savior. Not so in Catholicism. You have to do other stuff too.  

ORIGINAL: sharismom

So I can continue to rape and pillage and as long as I ask God to forgive me, I will get into heaven?

Let's say I rape and pillage every day, but every night, I ask God to forgive me.  If I die during the night, will I go to heaven?

Let's say I rape and pillage every day and ask God to forgive me every night.  However after a day of raping and pillaging, I die of a heart attack before I can ask God to forgive me for that day's transgressions.  Will I go to heaven?

I find this a dilemma myself.  How can people, let's say someone like Charles Manson, ask for forgiveness for the horrible things he did and still get into heaven?

When I attended church regularly, the people explained that if one admits he did wrong and asks for forgiveness, he will get into heaven, but that there are different "levels" that one is allowed to enter depending on the way he lived his whole life.  So if you keep sinning and asking for forgiveness but don't change your patterns, then you won't be on the same level as Mother Teresa.

Now, I am a Presbyterian who once regularly attended churches of that branch of faith, as well as United Methodist, and a Catholic church.  I had the most difficult time with the teachings of the Catholic church regarding sin and pennance - I saw it more like the scenario Billy posed, that it's okay to sin, repent, sin, repent forever. 

I dunno.  I sometimes had difficulty with the sermons because it comes down to another person who is "in charge" of the church interpreting the Bible and telling the congregation "this is the meaning". 

 
I totally get this.  I don't understand a lot of where Catholics get their doctrine because most of the stuff like you mention, is nowhere in the bible.  Like purgatory and so forth.  A lot of catholic church doctrine was constructed by papal authority to raise money for the church (as in, pay me $$$ and I'll pray that dead baby of yours that you never baptised, gets into heaven instead of spending eternity in purgatory).  And then Dante Alighieri's book confused the whole matter and the levels of hell according to the levels of sin and so forth.  None of that is biblical. 
 
The bible DOES say that we will reap proportionately in heaven, what we reap here on earth.  So for example, if you believe in Christ but do nothing to help your fellow man, apparently there would be a different outcome for you than the person who believes in Christ and spent their life working to transform the world.  I think it is a matter with getting in touch with who God truly made you to be, and feeding and edifying that spirit.  Christianity is about community - and if you spend your Christian life in a vacuum, you aren't going to be able to grow.

Alright, I have a question.  So I understand how different faiths may have different "levels" of heaven/hell.  I understand that if you sin and you truely repent for your sin, you may be forgiven.  What happens when someone truely mentally ill does not understand the difference between right & wrong kills someone?  What do the different faiths say about what happens to them?

You'd have to assume that person believes in God and knows who Jesus is and all that.
 
Otherwise I'd say it's the same as whatever those faiths believe will happen to people of other religions, that believe in other god or god, and have  other lifestyles, or no religion at all, no?

ORIGINAL: g33
You simply cannot just "say" you believe and ask for forgiveness as some kind of "get out of hell free" pass. 

 
It has been awhile since I was "religious" so forgive me my rusty recall, but I disagree.  I think you certainly do get a "get out of hell free" card, so to speak. 
 
Although the Bible contradicts itself, all you have to do for eternal life is "he who believes and is baptized.." or, "...whosoever believeth in him shall...have everlasting life."  So, all you have to do to get into heaven is to believe and POSSIBLY be baptized.  I believe you can sin all you want.  Please point me to a scripture that indicates otherwise.

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

You'd have to assume that person believes in God and knows who Jesus is and all that.

 
I'm not talking about what the mentally ill person believes.  I mean that what do the different religions say about where this person soul goes when they die?  Say for instance Catholics (I'm not picking but it was the 1st one that popped into my head).  Do they believe that this person would go to heaven for not knowing the difference between right or wrong?  Do they go to hell because they killed someone?  The same thing for LDS, JW, Buddists (yes, I know but it is still a "religion"), etc.
 

ORIGINAL: melindar

Alright, I have a question.  So I understand how different faiths may have different "levels" of heaven/hell.  I understand that if you sin and you truely repent for your sin, you may be forgiven.  What happens when someone truely mentally ill does not understand the difference between right & wrong kills someone?  What do the different faiths say about what happens to them?

As I understand it, according to what I was taught, those with mental disabilities were born into an imperfect body (and this goes back to my belief of the spirit world from which we all came).  They will not be held accountable for their actions, but will have the chance to repent and learn the difference between right and wrong when they die and move on to the spirit world again. 

We have three levels of heaven, and all but the most malicious will go forward from the spirit world.  Those that do not will go to outer darkness, where they will be in misery.

And Billy makes a good point. 

We're taught to stay on a good path.  It makes absolutely no sense to ask for forgiveness (repent, as we call it) and then go out the next day and kill, rape, steal, and so on.  Where does it end?  I'm not actually repenting for something if I do it repeatedly the next day and the next day and the next day. 

Since this is so open, I'd love to throw out a question of my own to those of you from Protestant denominations.  From what I gather through constant interaction with my fellow citizens, there is no spirit world in your belief system.  Apparently, when you die, you go straight to a single level heaven, right?  And the bad people go straight to hell?  Well .......... what about Judgement Day?  Do you think that the ones who are in heaven already will get sent to hell after Judgement Day?  Like, they were in heaven for however long, but when their Book of Life is opened and read to them, detailing their bad deeds and such, they may find themselves in hell, perhaps?  "Oh, Sally, I'm so sorry, but you were this close to being righteous and holy.  I guess you're doomed to hell now.  Nice knowing you."  See, that doesn't make sense to me, because it seems unfair.  In our system, the spirit world is more than just a waiting period for Judgement Day.  It serves as a way to educate others about our beliefs, and allow them to reject or accept it. 

And what about non-Christians?  Do you think they immediately go to hell upon death?  There has to be an in-between there, don't you think?  It seems odd that my Muslim friend will go straight to hell when he dies.  That's unfair to him and his fellow Muslims. 

What about the lull between death and Judgement Day?  Care to explain what you believe on this issue?  I'm interested to know.