Spinoff discussion on religion from the "saving" thread

    • Gold Top Dog
    I was raised Catholic and I remember the nuns telling us about babies who die  before baptism going to purgatory ... but ... I don't think God ever said any such thing. I didn't believe then and don't believe now that someone has to accept Jesus Christ as their savior or be baptized to get into heaven.  That would exclude the millions of people who practice Islam, Judaism and a whole host of other relgions.  That could also explain why I spent 12 consecutive years in deep, deep trouble with nuns. [:D] I don't believe for a minute that God is planning to exclude anyone. I'm sure a lot of what's in the Bible was handed down for years, but I'm even more sure that a whole lot more was lost in translation.  I don't think the bible is meant to be taken literally, word for word.
     
    Joyce


    • Gold Top Dog
    OTOH, you could spend your life doing good deads, helping the needy, be a true asset to humanity and the planet and still not get to heaven because of a legal detail.
     
    As opposed to the chukchi. How you treat your dogs determines whether you go to "heaven." If you have treated them well, they await to pull your sled to heaven.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    They are "innocents

     
    I have moments of purity in heart for I have seen the face of God. A church bus was passing me on their way back to Oklahoma. This young lady was looking out the window and smiling and rubbed her face on the window to make a silly face. She must have been in her mid to late teens. Possibly "mentally challenged." I do not mean that God is mentally challenged. The face of God is seen in the pure joy that someone expresses in the bounty of this life.
     
    It kind of reminds me of Alannys Morrisette as God in the movie, "Dogma," when she tweaks a person's nose. Pure faith and joy in the world. That is the face of God. Not necessarily human dimensions.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I always thought christians were catholics that were allowed to get a divorce? If I remember correctly it's a fairly "new" offshoot of catholics right? Some king in england wanted to get a divorce and made his own religion? Something like that.
    I can't even give my wife what she wants with a church wedding because she is catholic, I'm 1: Not catholic, was I guess until the church my mother went to wouldn't babtize us unless she gave 10% to the church. 2: Not dunked in water 3: Divorced 4: We have to get permission from the pope to get married, who the hell is this guy to tell me I can't marry the woman I love?  5: Our marriage isn't valid or any other marriage isn't valid because we were not married in a house of "god" and last but not least 6: We have to get permission from my EX WIFE!!!!
    So, I'm not baptized am I going to hell?
     
    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog
    So, I'm not baptized am I going to hell?

     
    Nope, because of...
    I'm 1: Not catholic
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: HKdog

    I always thought christians were catholics that were allowed to get a divorce? If I remember correctly it's a fairly "new" offshoot of catholics right? Some king in england wanted to get a divorce and made his own religion? Something like that.
    I can't even give my wife what she wants with a church wedding because she is catholic, I'm 1: Not catholic, was I guess until the church my mother went to wouldn't babtize us unless she gave 10% to the church. 2: Not dunked in water 3: Divorced 4: We have to get permission from the pope to get married, who the hell is this guy to tell me I can't marry the woman I love?  5: Our marriage isn't valid or any other marriage isn't valid because we were not married in a house of "god" and last but not least 6: We have to get permission from my EX WIFE!!!!
    So, I'm not baptized am I going to hell?



    If you get your first marriage annulled and convert you can get married in the Catholic church. Basically the annullment is just a bunch of paperwork hoops. A friend in grad school's fiance got his first marriage annulled, even though they had a daughter. Another friend wanted me to fill out paperwork to get her marriage annulled so the ex could get remarried, but I have philosophical issues with it, so I didn't. It's a technical, almost legalese argument  and pretty much anybody can make a case for annullment.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: miranadobe

    So, I'm not baptized am I going to hell?


    Nope, because of...
    I'm 1: Not catholic


     
    And also because most of what you're  talking about didn't come from God anyway.  It was made up by assorted popes in the middle ages to suit their own needs ... and later on by nuns, who really needed to think of things to keep us in line. [:D] Do you really believe that all Catholics let senile old men make life altering decisions for them?
     
    Joyce
    • Gold Top Dog
    From a Christian perspective, there is only one truth.  So regardless of whether or not Mr. X believes in hell or not, or whether or not Mr. X  believes he has a soul or not, God says that he does.  So Mr. X would still be subject to God's laws regardless of whether he has chosen to believe them or not. 

     
    Wow...that's so incredibly presumptuous (not you, the idea in general) lol. No wonder I don't 'do' religion...lol. 
    Good to know tho...thanks for posting it!
    • Gold Top Dog
    If I remember correctly it's a fairly "new" offshoot of catholics right? Some king in england wanted to get a divorce and made his own religion? Something like that.

     
    Yeppers, something like that. Catholics are the original Christians.
     
    I'm sure a lot of what's in the Bible was handed down for years, but I'm even more sure that a whole lot more was lost in translation.  I don't think the bible is meant to be taken literally, word for word.

     
    I couldn't agree with this more.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: saveastray2day


    If you get your first marriage annulled and convert you can get married in the Catholic church. Basically the annullment is just a bunch of paperwork hoops.
     
     
    Paperwork hoops?! You have no idea!!! I actually had to sit in a room with some priest, father, bishop or whatever he is, and listen to him ask me if I had pre-marital sex with my ex wife. If she was catholic, and if my mother had pre-marital sex before she was married!!  WTF????? How does that have ANYTHING to do with me trying to give my wife what she wants. All she wanted was a nice little church wedding. Then this f<>?#$er had the nerve to send a transcript of our little interview to my wife!! Thats some nice info to send to a mans wife, what he did with his ex wife. And of course he had to call the ex wife and ask her these same questions. (my ex is Japanese btw, they have their own beliefs there) I was considering converting just for my wife so she could have her church wedding in the little country chapel she likes. But, thanks to this whole episode, she no longer wants anything to do with it. I'm glad I didn't.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    So, there's Roman Catholicism, there's the various protestant denominations, and there's Eastern Orthadox.  The Eastern Orthodox church split from the Roman church in the 11th century. Eastern Orthodox is a much more mystical branch of Christianity than either Catholicism or Protestantism. It's pretty neat, actually.
     
    The Protestant Reformation was not really one thing but a whole bunch of stuff done and thought and said by a whole bunch of people all over Europe during the 15th and 16th centuries. For some it was primarily theological, for a lot it was political. The thing with King Henry in England was completely 100% political and had to do way more with a power struggle between the British Crown and the Holy Roman Emperor, with the Pope kind of caught in between (and held ;prisoner in his own castle for a little while by the Emperor). It's a really fascinating story and I went through a little phase where I read everything I could on Tudor politics.
     
    After the Protestant Reformation, Europe was basically one giant war (civil and inter-state) for the next 300 years, the Protestants vs. the Catholics. Again, it was mostly political, but the religious differences didn't help and were used by the political leaders to rally the more "common folk" to hatred and violence. That was what the founders of this country were desperately trying to avoid by not having a state religion.
     
    I really, really highly recommend the books written by Karen Armstrong on the Abrahemic religions: A History of God and The Battle for God. They are top-notch. As a non-judeo-christian I find it all quite fascinating. It's all so sort of alien to me, my anthropological antennae always go way up about monotheism.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: probe1957
    I understand, but what I am saying is I think you can keep raping and pillaging and as long as you "believe" you will get into heaven.

     
    Billy, you should check out the Carpocrates -
     
    the Carpocratians believed they themselves could transcend the material realm and, as a result, were no longer bound by [linkMosaic>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_law]Mosaic law[/link] (which was established by the material powers) or any morality (which, they held, was mere human opinion). This belief, Irenaeus offers as an explanation of their licentious behaviour.
    Irenaeus then goes on to provide a further, slightly different, but not incompatible, explanation. The followers of Carpocrates, he says, believed that in order to leave this world, one's imprisoned eternal soul must pass through every possible condition of earthly life. Moreover, it is possible to do this within one lifetime. As a result, the Carpocratians did "all those things which we dare not either speak or hear of" in order that when they died that would not be compelled to incarnate again but would return to God.
    Of the practices of the sect, Irenaeus says that they practised various magical arts as well as leading a licentious life.
    [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpocratian]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpocratian[/link]
     
    Or maybe you would like the Adamites -
     
    The obscure sect, dating probably from the second century, professed to have regained Adam's primeval innocence. Various accounts are given of their origin. Some have thought them to have been an offshoot of the [linkCarpocratian[/link]>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpocratian]Carpocratian[/link] [linkGnostics[/link]>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism]Gnostics[/link], who professed a sensual [linkmysticism[/link]>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism]mysticism[/link] and a complete emancipation from the moral law. [linkTheodoret[/link]>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoret]Theodoret[/link] (Haer. Fab., I, 6) held this view of them, and identified them with the licentious sects whose practices are described by [linkClement>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria]Clement of Alexandria[/link]. Others, on the contrary, consider them to have been misguided [linkascetics[/link]>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism]ascetics[/link], who strove to extirpate carnal desires by a return to simpler manners, and by the abolition of marriage.
    [linkSt.>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Epiphanius]St. Epiphanius[/link] and [linkAugustine>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo]Augustine of Hippo[/link] mention the Adamites by name, and describe their practices. They called their church "[linkParadise
    [/link]">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise]Paradise[/link]", claiming that its members were re-established in [linkAdam>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve]Adam and Eve[/link]'s state of original innocence. Accordingly, they practiced "holy [linknudism[/link]">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudism]nudism[/link]", rejected the form of [linkmarriage[/link]>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage]marriage[/link] as foreign to Eden, saying it would never have existed but for sin, lived in absolute lawlessness, holding that, whatever they did, their actions could be neither good nor bad and stripped themselves naked while engaged in common worship.
    [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamites]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamites[/link]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I really, really highly recommend the books written by Karen Armstrong on the Abrahemic religions: A History of God and The Battle for God. They are top-notch. As a non-judeo-christian I find it all quite fascinating. It's all so sort of alien to me, my anthropological antennae always go way up about monotheism.

     
    I love Karen Armstrong! Those two are on my list, but I have read The Great Transformation (the history and comparisons between the emergences of Judeo-Christian monotheism, Greek philosophy, Hindusim, and Buddhism). And I read her two memoirs about joining, and leaving, an English convent. She is a fabulous writer and a fascinating religious thinker.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I just wanted to mention baptism since it was mentioned earlier.  I grew up Baptist and it's a common misconception that baptists must be baptised to go to heaven.  Baptism is symbolic only.  Baptists believe that God calls you to be baptised as an outward expression of your faith in him.  So it isn't required to be baptised, but you are called to be baptised.  Most people are baptised, but it is a choice and not done as a baby. 

    I'm more of an individualistic person when it comes to faith.  I do what's right to me and try to live my life the best way I can.  I'm not much of a church goer.  I'm a Christian, but I don't see the need to shove my faith down other people's throats.  I think the best thing I can do for Christianity and improving other people's outlooks on the faith is to be a good person who is strong in my own faith, but non-judgemental.

    Don't worry, I get people trying to 'save me' too.  We get some wackos on college campus telling us we're all going to hell for wearing pants or our hair down. 

    I love religious discussion, it's always nice to get thinking about these things.  Religion is fascinating.  There's a few courses her I'd like to take- the one on Islam seems most intersting to me.  Or the Science Fiction in the 21st century class... sorry, getting off topic... *is looking for electives to take next semester*
    • Gold Top Dog
    I grew up in the Lutheran Church and was baptised as an infant.  I think it's pretty standard for Lutherans, considering I'm from the ELCA synod and DH is from the Missouri synod and we were both baptised as babies.  The part of my family that isn't Lutheran is Catholic, so until I attended a non-denominational church for the first time I never even knew that some Christians baptised their children when they were older.

    And yes, Catholics are Christians.