Straw Poll

I think living beyond ones means is pretty epidemic among that group

BINGO!!!  I don't know the stats about living beyond your means and not having health insurance, but I am amazed at how it's the norm lately for middle America to live WAY beyond their means and get in debt up to their eyeballs.

My arent's generation wouldn't have dreamed of buying anything "on time" yet alone feel entitled to do so, than cry banckruptcy or go to a credit counseling agency and have their interest rates lowered.  Who do you think covers those "losses" the credit companies inquire??  Everybody!

I'm not sure when it became the norm to become gluttonous spenders whether we can afford it or not.  I know quite a few people just off the top of my head that are in these huge McMansions with whopping mortgages, luxury cars in the driveway, vacations galore and they don't make any more than my family does.  In some cases they make considerably less.  They slap it on credit and worry about it later.  I personally can't live like that.  My goal is to have no debt, not continue to build on it and fight about it every month.  No thank you. 

Am Ex is the only card I"ll ever have and I try to live by the rule, if I can't pay cash, I can't afford it. 
 
And, this was not meant to stereotype as I realize not everyone in middle America spends beyond their means.  I am siting instances that I personally know of and can see stories on the news about this topic/epedemic all the time.  That would be like saying everyone on welfare is a deadbeat.  Not the case.

In many parts of the world... basic healthcare is a right, not a privilege. And *I* believe that's the only way to be...

DH was amazed that it cost him $25 to see a doctor in Korea. Without insurance (since he's a foreigner there.) With national health insurance, it would've been less than $10.

In regard to Gina's question about spending habits, I believe that's more stereotyping... I live a frugal lifestyle, my bills come first and my primary goal right now is paying off my debt and lifting my credit rating
 
I think there are stats out there to show what the majority of middle class America's spending habits and debts are like. Not sure why you applied my question as being about you personally, when it was about an entire socieconomic class of which I also am part.
 
But...allllrighty then.

At least give me credit for saying that you wouldn't be able to stay out of this, will ya?  []
 

Well, my idea of doing well is that I have steady work - no easy feat in my profession; I'm paying down the debt I acquired to start my business; I pay all my bills and rent on time; I just saved enough to move cross-country and set up shop in a new city without borrowing a dime; and my income has been rising every year since I quit my corporate job.

 
It sounds to me like you're on the right track.  The primary reason why businesses fail is cash flow, not profitability.  In any given year, over 50% of businesses that BK are profitable when they do it.  A tip, if I may, learn your balance sheet inside and out and manage your business to improve your balance sheet.  Too many business owners manage for profit or cash and just skim over, or completely ignore their balance sheet because they don't understand it.  A MAJOR mistake, IMO.  There are three major areas of financial management of a business, those being profit, cash flow and the balance sheet.  By far, the most critical is the balance sheet.  Manage it like the life of your business depends on it, because it does.
 
Now, off my soapbox.  []

Let me be clear... I am not having a pity party here.

 
I didn't think you were.  We are having a debate.
 

But everyone has to start somewhere.

 
I know.  The problem is, if you have assets and you don't have health insurance, you are one incident or illness away from financial ruin.  That's a risk I am not willing to take.
 

President Bush has paid a lot of lip service to how great small businesses are and how much he wants to support them, but the reality on the ground is a different story

 
And in an ideal world where I am taller and Ron has a decent haircut, what would you have President Bush do for you?  []
 

so much, why don't we support people who are trying to make something of themselves - like me?

 
To me, that is a market thing, not a government thing.  If you deliver a product or service that is better, faster and/or cheaper than your competition, the market will reward that.  If you don't, your business will fail.  This is as it should be, in a free market economy.

I'm taking a shot in the dark here but I'm thinking you have health insurance because your employer pays for it, or perhaps your wife's employer does. Big difference.

 
Close, but not quite.  The days of an employer picking up 100% of the cost of health insurance is pretty much over.  My employer heavily subsidizes my health insurance.  To insure me, my wife, my step daughter and my son, I pay $57 per week.  Not cheap, to be sure, but it is very good insurance.
 
You see, just like you, I have a choice.  My choice was to work for a company that provides benefits, including health insurance, 401k and ESOP, among others.

I would like some of MY tax dollars to pay for MY OWN health care.

 
Be honest though.  You also want some of MY tax dollars to pay for YOUR health care.  That's the way it would work anyway.  You know it, I know it and the American people know it.  The net result would be, the percentage of my income that goes to my health care and taxes would increase because I now have to cover you.  I don't want to do that.  If you want to have health insurance, either buy it or go to work for someone who either provides it or heavily subsidizes it.
 

Percentage-wise I probably pay more than you in taxes

 
I have no doubt that is true, but I would also guess I pay MANY more dollars in taxes than you do.
 

so why can't I get something besides a war in Iraq from my tax dollars?

 
Are you trying to give an example of a straw man.  []
 

ORIGINAL: stanleysmom

In many parts of the world... basic healthcare is a right, not a privilege. And *I* believe that's the only way to be...

DH was amazed that it cost him $25 to see a doctor in Korea. Without insurance (since he's a foreigner there.) With national health insurance, it would've been less than $10.

 
What you might not understand though is that health care isn't free.  SOMEONE has to pay for it.  Compare Canadian taxes as a percentage of ersonal income to the US.  It will shock you.  And this for a lousy health care system?  No thanks.

ORIGINAL: probe1957

What you might not understand though is that health care isn't free.  SOMEONE has to pay for it.  Compare Canadian taxes as a percentage of personal income to the US.  It will shock you.  And this for a lousy health care system?  No thanks.

I happen to be an economics major at an Ivy League university, so yes, I do understand that health care isn't free [] Canada is far from the only country in the world that offers national health insurance, though I understand to some people, that's the extent of the "outside world" they can think of... []

ORIGINAL: stanleysmom
I happen to be an economics major at an Ivy League university, so yes, I do understand that health care isn't free [] Canada is far from the only country in the world that offers national health insurance, though I understand to some people, that's the extent of the "outside world" they can think of... []

Well then, you surely know that Canada is a country with an economy very much like ours, so the comparison is a valid one.  You want to REALLY be shocked when you do the comparison I suggested?  Factor in the difference each country spends for their military and see what the picture looks like then.  And by all means, please feel free to do this comparing any country you wish with the US.
 
ETA:  You and I might realize that Canada does not have free health care, but I have heard it described as "free" MANY times.  I prefer to call it socialized health care.

every non English speaking

 
Who said anything about non English speaking?

To insure me, my wife, my step daughter and my son, I pay $57 per week.

that is about what i pay for just me through my company. of course our insurance almost doubled last year. one of our employee's wife needed an operation and of course the insurance company couldnt absorb that cost. those premiums must barely cover operating costs?

of course that is a discussion for a whole different topic. "why insurance companies should be held legally accountable for gouging and taking advantage of it's subscribers"

My DH gets $133 deducted, each pay period for medical on 2 adults and 2 kids. Dunno if that's good bad or middling...we have separate charges for dental and vision....not much tho...$30 or so each?

ORIGINAL: probe1957

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada
OK, soooo...... why?

Well, it was an apparently poor joke but, since I started it, I will play.  []

Women, with very few exceptions, don't have the stomach to send young men to war.  Margaret Thatcher, if she were American, might have been an exception to that rule, but she is so ugly I wouldn't vote for her either.

That's crap, Billy - I'd send you to war.  We'd probably win. []

Seriously, I wouldn't make a generalization like that any more.  There are a lot of women in this country who would have the guts for just about anything, and women can multi-task.  But, if a woman can't get elected, the fact is that it will be because women don't tend to support strong women.  They resent them instead.

As to the insurance issue, there are people whose companies offer insurance but they don't take it because their check would shrink.  So, they go to the ER uninsured, and apply for free care if something happens, or they go on Medicaid.  That isn't fair either, and I think you will see the new Massachusetts law being hyped on the national stage during the Romney campaign.  (After all, he probably won't want to focus on the Big Dig LOL)

Are you trying to give an example of a straw man.

 
Haha... I love that you called me on that. It was a total straw man. I promised myself I would wait until tomorrow to reply to this thread again but I just had to laugh at that one. []

Many immigrants find that the land of equal opportunity isn't really that equal when they get here - it is hard for them to find jobs even when they are overqualified in many cases. 

 
it is not hard for them to find government assistance. my state is full of seasonal workers, trust me- they do not starve or die of ill health during the off season.
 

basic healthcare is a right, not a privilege 

 
  i think all too often we forget we are all wild animals, we just walk on 2 legs and communicate more complexly. in the natural world, the strongest and the fastest fight the hardest, therefor they are more privelaged. applying this over to my point- i do not want my child to die of potential serious illnesses while we wait for a special service, not out of "fairness" to the rest of the public. that is not my natural instinct as a mother.

I vote for George Carlin.

 
 
[sm=rofl.gif]  where do i check the box?

Hillary Clinton -- Definitely, but I don't want her to run.  She probably cannot win, and I'd hate to see another Republican in office.
Barak Obama -- Yes, I would.  Same case with Clinton.  He probably cannot win, even though he'd be a fine choice.
 
John Kerry -- Um, no, I voted for him in '04, but I don't want to do it again.  Unless he's the nominee ... [:'(]

Rudy Guiliani  -- No.  I have never and will never vote for a Republican.

Mitt Romney  -- No way.  See above.

John Edwards  -- I really like him, but I don't see him gaining traction.

Regardless, I'm voting for the Democrat.  It's not even something I second guess.  I'm very liberal, and I don't care who has a problem with it. 

I'm sick of seeing the middle class struggle.  It's completely asinine to assume the middle class goes out and blows their hard earned money.  With bills to pay, how can they?  I see this crap on a daily basis.  They struggle to pay the mortgage, put food on the table, and take care of their kids.  These people are punished for having a job.  Maybe if they sat around all day twiddling their thumbs, they would have it easy.  Or maybe if they were wealthy, their worries wouldn't be paramount.  Not only are they punished, but their kids are punished, too.  Middle class teens are slapped in the face, because their parents hold down a job.  They are turned down for financial aid, so they go into debt with student loans.  Oh ... if the middle class wouldn't burn through their money, they could afford to send their kids to college and pay thousands of dollars a year, right?  Of course!

I know this stuff happens for two reasons: I work as a staff writer for a newspaper and interact with the middle class daily -- and -- I grew up as a middle class kid.  No financial aid for me, because my parents worked.  Student loans all the way, darn it.  Still paying them now.  We had insurance, but dad paid out the @$$ for it.  I had everything I ever wanted -- nice clothes, the latest video games, a car when I turned 16 -- but it wasn't always easy for my middle class parents.

Dad is a small business owner, so he doesn't get insurance through a corporation.  And let me tell you -- Bush doesn't give a hoot about my dad or any other actual small business owner.

Nancy Pelosi and the other liberals want to cut student loan interest rates in half.  I love that.  It'd definitely save me a fortune.  The Republicans have already denounced that.  Absurd.

Those darn liberals also want to raise the minimum wage.  How dare they.  Isn't it better for people to suffer as they get by on each paycheck?  Why should be help struggling families?  Oops ... I slipped into a Republican's train of thought.