Straw Poll

It's nice to hear people say our services are important and should be reimbursed.

 
[] Glad I could make your day!  It drives me crazy and I am constantly telling my dh it isn't the doctors making all the money, or the hospitals.  It's the INSURANCE CO.S!!!  They decide what to reimburse, they decide if you should have "that" medication or something that costs less, they decide when you have to be discharged from the hospital......
 
I work weekends only.  When I see the parade of triage pregnant patients come to our unit for things that are clearly office visit situations, it galls me.  Do you know what it costs to see that patient, do the paperwork, do a billion dollar work-up so we don't get sued, only to send her home with an over the counter medication???  It costs the hospital plenty and they are reimbursed a tiny fraction of that.  I am to the point that I think patients should have to pay at the door for our services when they never called their doctor before just showing up. 
 
It's entitlement and immediate gratification.  The attitude is "I'm not waiting until tomorrow morning to call my doctor (or call him NOW on his answering service) when I can just show up and be treated".  Grrrrrrrr.  Bottom line is, we treat and it's pretty much a freebee visit.
 
Clearly something has to be done about it.  We have the technology and the best trained medical personnel in the world, yet we can't figure out how to get these services to everyone at reasonable cost.   

Wow, many of you should pause and count your blessings... that you can't even conceive of a life without health insurance. I can barely conceive of a life WITH it.
 

I submit that people like this are not productive members of society.  They have low level jobs or they would have health insurance.  They have few resources or they would be able to afford health care.  They are net tax takers rather than net tax payers.  They are the weakest and least desirable among us.  If people like this were animals, living in the wild, nature would take its course.  I say, let nature take its course with them too.  If you want to support them, fine.  Just don't mandate that I do it.  They had the same opportunity to provide for themselves that I have.  Don't try to put the blame for them being losers on my shoulders.

 
This portrayal of the person without insurance is SO far from accurate I can hardly believe my eyes. Poor people in this country CAN get insurance through the government already. Americans need to wake up and realize that you, the average hardworking middle class citizen, are the one who is just plain lucky to not be me. I used to have health care and live in poverty - so I quit my job and now I earn a good living as an independent contractor. But guess what, no "good living" pays enough for healthcare when you are a small business owner. I am a productive member of society, I do have resources, I pay my taxes, I receive very little in the way of government money (student loans 10 yrs ago), I am most assuredly not a loser. Do you have any idea how much health insurance costs if you don't go through a big corporate employer? Try a minimum of $300 a month for bare bones coverage that won't even take care of any regular doctor visits. That's almost as much as my rent... it's more than two full days income for me in a good week (and weeks aren't always flush for a contractor). And I'd still have to pay out of pocket every time I went in for the medical condition I currently have and am not treating, because it wouldn't be covered. Last time I could afford to get treatment I paid $2500 out of pocket in a single year for my doctors appts... and frighteningly enough that is STILL less than I would have paid out in insurance alone!
 
Bless your heart that you can't even imagine a life like this. We should all be so lucky!

Bless your heart that you can't even imagine a life like this. We should all be so lucky!

 
I do agree with you.  I fully believe in getting healthcare to all, I really do.  I know that it's nearly impossible for some people to afford good healthcare without a large employer paying for most of it.  I don't fault people for not having healthcare in our society today.  I would be willing to bet that the majority of people NOT covered by a decent insurance plan are the working middle class.    
 
My problem is that it is frustrating that we have such a failed system with all our resources and technology available.   That the blame for high costs of healthcare lies on the heads of doctors and hospitals.  Truth is, it's the big insurance co.s and all the frivilous lawsuits in our litigation happy society.  There are many great doctors that can't even practice anymore because of the high cost of their malpractice insurance.  At some point, every single doctor out there will face this.  Over the years they will ALL have frivilous lawsuits on their records and their rates will climb.  They are put out of business in their 40's and early 50's.  It's a shame that these physicians can't practice while the lawyers get richer.       

jones: i know where you are coming from. when i graduated from college, i was working for a small business (3 people including me). our boss couldnt afford to offer health care. i had one of those health plans you are talking about. if i had to have surgery or something major it was covered. otherwise i had to foot the bill, and still come up with the month premium. i was just out of college and they offered a reduced rate to recent grads for a year. at the end of that year, i could no longer afford the premiums. so i was sans insurance for quite a while.

i could afford dr's visits for illnesses, but i knew darn well i couldnt break a leg or an arm. god forbid i needed surgery. people wonder why my dad has worked for the state for so long. the pay is good, but not what he could make at some private businesses doing the same thing. but once you factor in the benefits package the state offers, it makes other places less attractive.

ORIGINAL: jones
Bless your heart that you can't even imagine a life like this. We should all be so lucky!

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i think our economic system was built and is still carried on the backs of the small business person. i dont think we should offer gov't subsidized health care to small business owners, but it would be nice if the insurance companies would offer affordable health care options. 

That was a great post, Erin.  It's just amazing what bizarre misconceptions people have about those who are uninsured. The example that comes to mind is the driver DH has been using for years to get from the Burbank airport to downtown Los Angeles twice a week. The guy came here with his family from another country, became a citizen and over the years managed to buy two or three used vans to start a little shuttle service. He was telling DH that it's only the few tips that he gets that makes it possible for him to survive what with the cost of gas and the horrific car insurance premiums he has to pay. I think for him, health insurance is a distant dream. I agree that the government shouldn't necessarily subsidize health insurance for small business owners, but it sure would be nice if the insurance companies would come up with affordable plans. It's almost like society is trying to punish people for wanting to start their own business instead of working for some corporation.
 
Joyce

ORIGINAL: probe1957
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Billy, I'm not going to go twelve rounds with you but you're totally missing the point. I made a great choice in starting my own business, I do well and my business is less than three years old. The point is that the cost of private health insurance is prohibitive to middle class workers. You don't know that because you haven't had to go that route. But I am news for you, I am the typical uninsured American... not some lazy person sitting at home whining about anything.

This is the thing that most bugs me about Republicanism... people of privelege thinking that the reason they have what they have is because they deserve it, and that it must follow that those who don't have it must not deserve it. That's just so divorced from reality I have a hard time arguing with it. Being a moral, good, worthwhile person doesn't land you insurance, money, opportunity, or a good job... that's just not the way things work and that's the last I'll say about it.

ORIGINAL: jones
Billy, I'm not going to go twelve rounds with you

Oh come on.  It will be fun.  []

I made a great choice in starting my own business, I do well and my business is less than three years old.

You've been doing what you're doing for three years, but you still can't afford a basic necessity like health insurance?  Your choice was so great that you want me to subsidize it?  I have never been a single day without health insurance.  I may have COBRA'd between a job or two, but I have always been insured.  You see, I have assets that could be attached if I had medical bills I couldn't pay.  I am surprised, if your business is doing so well, that you don't find yourself in the same boat.  Maybe we just have a different idea of what "doing well" means.

The point is that the cost of private health insurance is prohibitive to middle class workers.

Clearly wrong.  I am comfortably middle class and I have health insurance.  Always have.  I see health insurance as something I can't do without.  I am responsible for myself.  I don't expect someone else to pony up for my health care costs.

Let me ask you this.  If you fall and break your arm tomorrow, and it costs $5,000 to fix you up, can you pay it?  Or would you expect the taxpayers to pay it?  The hospital to just write it off?  This is not an unreasonable scenario.  How do you see it working out?  Are you concerned about losing personal or business assets to cover the bill?

This is the thing that most bugs me about Republicanism... people of privelege thinking that the reason they have what they have is because they deserve it,

LMAO.  That just might be the silliest thing I have ever read on this board.  Let me clue you in.  I am a republican.  I am not a person of privilege.  Everything I have I have because I EARNED it.

Since you were so wrong about republicans, let me tell you what I think about liberals.  Liberals, as I said before, want to ensure equality of outcome, not just equality of opportunity.  Liberals expect me to take part of what I have earned and give it to people who are less motivated or less capable than I am.  They expect this, with such a degree of conviction, that they want to mandate it.  This is what redistribution of wealth is all about.  Take from the haves and give to the have nots. 

You, yourself are a perfect example of liberalism at its finest.  You don't have health insurance so you want me to provide it for you.  You want me to take part of what I have and give it to you.  What is disturbing about your particular case is that your business is doing well so it's not like you can't afford health insurance, you just choose to spend the money on something else.  On something more fun, I assume.  But still, you have the nads to expect me to pick up this slack and somehow, magically provide you with health insurance.  Absolutely amazing the sense of entitlement some people feel.

 and that it must follow that those who don't have it must not deserve it.

It isn't that they don't deserve it.  It is that, in far too many cases, they are just too sorry, lazy, stupid or unmotivated to do what I did and earn it.

Being a moral, good, worthwhile person doesn't land you insurance, money, opportunity, or a good job...

True.  You also have to have a sense of responsibility for yourself.  You also have to be willing to work to attain your worthy goals.  If a person is responsible, reasonably educated and properly motivated, there is absolutely no reason for them to be without health insurance.

and that's the last I'll say about it.

I'll bet it ain't.  []

Jones,
 
I respect your ost and what you're saying really echoes how I feel about the topic. People talk about how North America offers equal opportunity for all, but that is just in theory. In practice, the opportunities vary significantly depending who your parents are, where you were born, your 'class', and sometimes something as silly as an accent. It's not fair to assume that those who are struggling financially are lazy or made dumb choices. The economy cannot support 300 million comfortably living, middle-class citizens. There are bound to be people who work hard and try their best but still get the short end of the stick. 

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada

Jones,

I respect your ost and what you're saying really echoes how I feel about the topic. People talk about how North America offers equal opportunity for all, but that is just in theory. In practice, the opportunities vary significantly depending who your parents are, where you were born, your 'class', and sometimes something as silly as an accent. It's not fair to assume that those who are struggling financially are lazy or made dumb choices. The economy cannot support 300 million comfortably living, middle-class citizens. There are bound to be people who work hard and try their best but still get the short end of the stick. 

 
Can you give me an idea of what kind of parents one would have, where one would be born, what one's class would be and what type of accent one would have that would destine them to end up on "the short end of the stick?"

I dunno...like some others have said there's no easy answers.
 
But I do think that if  the middle class are the true victims of lack of healthcare because "they work but its not enough" perhaps more inward turned investigation by those same middle class folks into their spending habits and what they actually truly "need" in life..would yield reasons why aside from the costs simply being too much? 
 
I think living beyond ones means is pretty epidemic among that group...as evidenced by the amazing amount of foreclosures here at least.
 

Can you give me an idea of what kind of parents one would have, where one would be born, what one's class would be and what type of accent one would have that would destine them to end up on "the short end of the stick?"

 
People born into wealthy or powerful families clearly have better opportunities than those who are not. They get into better schools, have better job connections, etc.
 
Many immigrants find that the land of equal opportunity isn't really that equal when they get here - it is hard for them to find jobs even when they are overqualified in many cases. 
 
Unfortunately there are plenty of employers with prejudices that affect hiring practices. Many employers would not even consider hiring a middle eastern, chinese or whatever erson despite their qualifications. So, they've taken the steps to achieve a great life for themselves, but still aren't offered the same opportunities that many of us are.

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada
People born into wealthy or powerful families clearly have better opportunities than those who are not. They get into better schools, have better job connections, etc.

 
Is there something you find unfair about that?

Many immigrants find that the land of equal opportunity isn't really that equal when they get here - it is hard for them to find jobs even when they are overqualified in many cases. 

 
So are immigrants then bound to end up on the short end of the stick? 

Unfortunately there are plenty of employers with prejudices that affect hiring practices. Many employers would not even consider hiring a middle eastern, chinese or whatever erson despite their qualifications.

 
Yeah, so.  It is THEIR business and SHOULD be their business who they hire.  If the business decisions they make are wrong, the market will bear that out.
 

So, they've taken the steps to achieve a great life for themselves, but still aren't offered the same opportunities that many of us are.

 
So, in your mind, not only should we have equal opportunity or equal outcome for people born here, but we should also ensure that for every non English speaking swinging ____ who wants to come here?

You've been doing what you're doing for three years, but you still can't afford a basic necessity like health insurance?  Your choice was so great that you want me to subsidize it?  I have never been a single day without health insurance.  I may have COBRA'd between a job or two, but I have always been insured.  You see, I have assets that could be attached if I had medical bills I couldn't pay.  I am surprised, if your business is doing so well, that you don't find yourself in the same boat.  Maybe we just have a different idea of what "doing well" means.

 
Well, my idea of doing well is that I have steady work - no easy feat in my profession; I'm paying down the debt I acquired to start my business; I pay all my bills and rent on time; I just saved enough to move cross-country and set up shop in a new city without borrowing a dime; and my income has been rising every year since I quit my corporate job.
 
Let me be clear... I am not having a pity party here. I'm pointing out the huge yawning gap in a system that disenfranchises and places at risk a lot of hardworking people in this country. In five years I expect to be doing well enough that I could afford health care for me, you, and Odie too. But everyone has to start somewhere. I'm a 28-year-old small business owner. President Bush has paid a lot of lip service to how great small businesses are and how much he wants to support them, but the reality on the ground is a different story... the government's idea of a "small business" when it comes to handouts and tax breaks is more like a corporation with a few hundred employees, not someone like me. If we love free market economy and "equal opportunity" so much, why don't we support people who are trying to make something of themselves - like me?

Clearly wrong.  I am comfortably middle class and I have health insurance.  Always have.  I see health insurance as something I can't do without.  I am responsible for myself.  I don't expect someone else to pony up for my health care costs.

 
I'm taking a shot in the dark here but I'm thinking you have health insurance because your employer pays for it, or perhaps your wife's employer does. Big difference.
 
I think you misunderstand the concept of universal health care. I don't want YOU to pay for MY health care. I want everyone to receive health care, and I would like some of MY tax dollars to pay for MY OWN health care. This whole "you subsidizing me" business is just an absurd straw man. Percentage-wise I probably pay more than you in taxes because I'm self-employed, so why can't I get something besides a war in Iraq from my tax dollars?
 

Let me ask you this.  If you fall and break your arm tomorrow, and it costs $5,000 to fix you up, can you pay it?  Or would you expect the taxpayers to pay it?  The hospital to just write it off?  This is not an unreasonable scenario.  How do you see it working out?  Are you concerned about losing personal or business assets to cover the bill?

 
If, god forbid, I break my arm tomorrow, I'm going to pay that $5,000 out of my pocket. I won't be able to do that all at once and it will hurt my credit. But when you simply don't HAVE the cash to pay an insurance premium, there is no "choice" being made there.
 
In regard to Gina's question about spending habits, I believe that's more stereotyping... I live a frugal lifestyle, my bills come first and my primary goal right now is paying off my debt and lifting my credit rating so I can buy a house one day. I sure do have a cell phone - I wouldn't have a business if I didn't. It's also about $60 a month, not exactly touching the cost of a (crappy) premium. I don't own a home or even a car. If anyone wants to go over my finances with a comb feel free, but, fair warning, then we may be getting into the mote in my eye, plank in yours category....