Cropping and Docking

again i mention the magic of breeders to turn dogs into living clay figures. they make his head look like a football, or a pumpkin, but they cant make his ears stand up, or his tail thicker....

i owned a dobie mix with double dew claws and the only problem i ever had was when the vet tried to trim them.... he didnt know the quick went all the way to the end of the nail. as a result.. trying to trim Franky's nails from there on out involved a muzzle and another person to hold him down - and i wasnt even trying to trim the dew claws - i decided he got enough walking and running to keep them worn down naturally so i stopped bothering with it.... and never had another problem since then.

again i see it as "lets prevent it so it WONT happen." being proactive i guess rather than waiting for a tail to break,or a toe to be ripped off..... but if that's the case then why arent Great Danes and American staffordshire terriers docked? they hurt their tails all the time... or American Bulldogs for that matter? ..sure some of them are docked but while its ALLOWED.. its usually frowned upon...the set of the tail in that breed is almost as important as his colour and ears. if you crop the ears then you cant show.. its totally against the rules. but a lot of bulldogs are used for catch work and protection.... they also cause a lot of pain when they hit you with their tails..

i really really dont care one way or the other. if they banned it tomorrow then i wouldnt care because, medical issues aside, it really IS pointless. other countries where it is banned get along just fine with their natural dogs, so can we.
but... yes i DO like the look of a cropped dobie or boxer.... but i wont pay for it to be done myself.

Removing the dew claws is painlessly done as day or two old pups...the vet literally snips them right off then cauterizes the wound and it's done...It saves from like Ed saying...them getting ripped off later ( we had this happen to our golden) We then had his other one taken off and it was a healing process and an infection risk...when done as pups...the infection risk is just about non-existent...there isn't a healing process and i've witnessed it....the lil pup screeched once..all done over...I'm sorry but I would much rather see that then the bleeding and pain my dog went through when he did in fact rip his when he was about 4....

if i went to a breeder expecting to pay 2000 dollars with the request to keep it natural and they told me a flat out "no" then i WOULD take my money elsewhere.

If I ever would go to a breeder to pay that, meaning somehow every shelter in the state was void of friendly dogs, damn straight I'd laugh in their face and find another breeder spreading bad word of mouth about the first one all the way.  I wonder why conformation is more important than a healthy and a loving home?  Because that's how it reads to me.  Find another breeder: I won't leave my dogs ears on him for you even if you would provide him the best home possible for any dog on the planet and you have no intention to show or breed.  Ok.  That's not responsible to me, that's plain selfish/stubborn/female doggish.  haha@female doggish.  So this is just more opinion.  Because responsible, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder if we're talking medically unnecsissary cosmetic surgery (Not that I believe performing unneccesary cosmetic surgery on anyone besides yourself is responsible, EVER, but again, opinion,eye of the beholder, get it?).  Like, I think pugs are ugly, my neighbor has one and she thinks they are the cutest things ever.  Get it?  Opinion. 

PS. I didn't realize the breed being discussed was a cocker, as young as pups are when tails get docked, a potential buyer, you can't get to know the pups and pick the right one before it's done, or figure out that you really don't want any of them.  Which saddens me, but the breeder does have to consider that leaving the dogs tail does not actually guarantee the person requesting it will want THAT pup or will even take a pup in the end.  Then the pup is facing a docking later if he is not taken home.  It sucks, but with so many people insisting on conformation the breeder is kind of between a rock and a hard place with it.

Xerxes--i've witnessed tail docking and dew claw removal and out of the two, dew claw removal looks worse! ouch!

Dew claw removal is HORRIBLE.  Some times it becomes medically necessary (like docking a tail can if it's being hurt often or gets degloved), but unless that happens, that's another thing that should be cut out, not off.  Methios gives hugs, his dew claws have left marks on either side of my neck, but unless it's a hazard to him, I'm not cutting them off.  Just try to keep em short and dull so they don't hurt me.  My responsibility to care for him, not go chop something off him that is annoying to me, but no risk to him or anyone else.

At least noone's used the "well I cropped my ears" statement yet. I bet you anything someone out there who really likes spock has done it.

Anyway, I don't think Americans need to worry at all about this being made illegal.  Our country has denied laws and agreements that were for the protection of the helpless, like children and animals, so consistently I really don't see it ever happening.  We like our "personal choices" that we inflict on others (yeah, that's SO personal) too much to give up that control.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I don't have a cropped or docked breed, but I understand the desire for cropping and docking.  It makes a dog look much more alert when it's ears are erect.  That is undeniable.

Dogs that are not cropped and docked don't look alert..,. You have to be kidding.....[sm=lol.gif]

ORIGINAL: talenak

if i went to a breeder expecting to pay 2000 dollars with the request to keep it natural and they told me a flat out "no" then i WOULD take my money elsewhere.

If I ever would go to a breeder to pay that, meaning somehow every shelter in the state was void of friendly dogs, damn straight I'd laugh in their face and find another breeder spreading bad word of mouth about the first one all the way.  I wonder why conformation is more important than a healthy and a loving home? "personal choices" that we inflict on others (yeah, that's SO personal) too much to give up that control.

Some people get wound up over the most petty things, probably because they are bored to tears or want to appear "perfect" to everyone they meet. Must be a sad way to live. 

I saw a litter of pups get them done and it looked like they cut off their entire toes. It kinda grossed me out. I'm all for dew claw removal, too. I think i made it sound like i wasn't.
 
quick question: anti docking/cropping people-do you have declawed cats?

quick question: anti docking/cropping people-do you have declawed cats?

I don't have cats.  But I about ripped my mothers head off when she declawed Isis.  That's not just cosmetic, it's dangerous.  Isis got attacked by a dog and couldn't even scratch him back.  My mother finally saw the light after that vet bill.  Too bad she can't grow them back. 
My son also isn't circumcised.  I don't tattoo my fish.  Or cut the legs off of ants.  Or rip wings off flies.

In case anyone wanted to throw in any other species to prove hypocrisy. 

ORIGINAL: RidgebackGermansShep

I saw a litter of pups get them done and it looked like they cut off their entire toes. It kinda grossed me out. I'm all for dew claw removal, too. I think i made it sound like i wasn't.

quick question: anti docking/cropping people-do you have declawed cats?

nope but i wish i did. my son's cat, Zero, ripped off his entire middle claw on his hind foot and he bled like a stuck pig.
maybe i should have removed them so he wouldnt be put through such pain []
ok i'm being a jerk.. but he really did rip out his claw. i couldnt go near him to clean it. my husband had to. i get the willies over injuries to nails... but i'm still not gonna chop'em off lol

Some people get wound up over the most petty things, probably because they are bored to tears or want to appear "perfect" to everyone they meet. Must be a sad way to live.

Are you talking about me?  I'm not clear.

Edit to add:  Actually it doesn't matter if you are talking about me or the hypothetical breeder I was talking about. 

I might disagree with them, but it's obviously not petty to them, or me.  We can, and have been, disagreeing here, questioning and challenging each other, without calling each other names.  I said it seemed something to me, but I also tried to be very clear that it was an eye of the beholder, personal opinion, and NOT a fact.  Just because it seems uncaring to me, REALLY does not make the person doing it uncaring. In fact, that they are here debating  it OBVIOUSLY means they care. 

It's not a sad way to live to care about something.  Even if I disagree with it.  Or you disagree with it. 

Can we just leave "offensive without contributing" out of it?

ORIGINAL: talenak

Some people get wound up over the most petty things, probably because they are bored to tears or want to appear "perfect" to everyone they meet. Must be a sad way to live.

Are you talking about me?  I'm not clear.

whats wrong with wanting to be perfect? shouldnt we all aspire to it? and who decides if someone ISNT near perfection, especially if you only know that person via internet connection?
lets not get snooty.... OR bent out shape over petty things []

OR bent out shape over petty things

I get bent out of shape over everything.  Especially when I'm sitting down.  My stupid chair forces me into a sitting position.  It's so annoying.

lol me too, you'd be surprised how minor aches and pains can turn a person into a raging idiotic butt head!
we should all go outside and play now..
i'm going to the beach today!!!

Dew claw removal is HORRIBLE.

 
What experience do you have???   What is so horrible about it.  How does it affect the dog in any way.  I've seen it done many times as the puppy was being born and they didn't even notice it.  No bleeding or pain nothing.  Have you ever seen a dog rip a dew claw after they were older.  I have and it is extremely painful and bloody.  Many dogs dew claws aren't even fully attached when they are born.  They are just hanging there loose waiting to get caught. 

ORIGINAL: timsdat

Dew claw removal is HORRIBLE.

What experience do you have???   What is so horrible about it.  How does it affect the dog in any way.  I've seen it done many times as the puppy was being born and they didn't even notice it.  No bleeding or pain nothing.  Have you ever seen a dog rip a dew claw after they were older.  I have and it is extremely painful and bloody.  Many dogs dew claws aren't even fully attached when they are born.  They are just hanging there loose waiting to get caught. 

you make it sound like they're ticks waiting to be pulled off. if its so painless and easy, and mess free then do people do this at home? pinch it off themselves? or do they pay a vet to do it? i'm just asking because i dont know.

 i've owned a lot of dogs in my life and never had but one issue with a dew claw, and it wasnt because he ripped it off. i liked my dogs' dew claws.... they wouldnt be there if they didnt have some sort of purpose. Kaydee uses hers to get traction because she is still learning to walk. when going up the steps or walking up a hill they come in handy.
and besides that.... if its such a problem then why arent ALL doggy dew claws removed? and tails.. and ears....

Bad enough that the AKC supports Puppy Mills, by soliciting their registration business. No sense blaming them for cropping and docking The AKC would sell their soul for a dollar...

 
Here we go again with the AR propaganda and lies.  We have shown you in the past where the AKC has a active inspection program that checks high volume breeders and does suspend the ones that don't meet the standards yet you still ost the propaganda.  
 
Tell me what is the legal definition is of a puppy mill anyway.    
 
Wasn't Best Friends the ones that spent thousands of dollars importing dogs from Lebanon instead of using the money to help dogs in this country?  Sounds like they were fishing for more donations.