Cropping and Docking

and you would be surprised at the amount of bird dogs, herding dogs, and catch dogs that are still out there doing their jobs.


Somehow I doubt that very many NYC labs are out there hunting or any dogs besides a border collie that actually are on working farms.

true they're either sitting in shelters, or locked in crates inside apartments. there's other things to be done with a lab.. especially if you show your lab, after all, i am not talking about pets. if you have time for traveling to shows then you should also have time for field trials.

Now now. . let's not forget that conformation has its merits as well AND a lot of show people also hunt and herd with their dogs. Field trials and herding trials may test the dog's ability to work, but what is the use of a dog with lots of instinct that is built so poorly it cannot run around in the field for hours on end?

and i already said i commend the people that do that.

Sure the show dogs may LOOK pretty, but there is more to just their good looks. .  they have the structure that would allow them to be able to work their body to its fullest potential.

tell that to the AKC version of the Irish Setter, or the AKC english bulldog, or the AKC Irish Wolfhound.

And while that digression was a bit unnecessary, I'd also like to touch on the fact that the AKC is not setting the standards nor does the AKC tell the judges how to judge. The AKC is a registry. . they like to collect money on show entries and they like to collect money on registrations and occasionally start hot-button issues on topics that could potentially make them more money. They're not going to tell the breed clubs what to do because the AKC knows diddly squat about the breeds.

so if thats the case then the majority of AKC breeders are responsible for the bad health of these breeds.
since majority rules then nothing else matters. if the dog has natural working ability and only one ear, is missing one eye, and a big scar on his nose.... he's a loser and that's that. [8|]  well that makes everything better.


ETA

anyone remember the thread about religion and dog training? the conversation being about questioning techniques... i think breed clubs need to take a giant step back and look at what they're doing, why they're doing it, and if its REALLY the best thing AT THIS POINT.
its becoming obvious that they're playing with dogs like play dough.... its sick.... they can breed a dog so that its head looks like a foot ball, but they cant breed another so that its ears and tail are born short and standing up. instead they chop them off..... [8|] eh?

ETA again,
and when i blame the AKC, its a blanket statement. wrong i suppose, but all these breed clubs gather under the big AKC Umbrella. which is why its a KENNEL Club, right?

I haven't read any responses, so I will just post my opinion.
 
I have no issue with cropping or docking, so long as it is done in a humane manner. I had my Doberman cropped, & I have no regrets. When I decide that I am ready to purchase another Doberman, I will again chose a dog that is cropped & docked.
 
Dobermans were originally bred to be protection dogs. A cropped ear presents a more alert appearance. Their ears were cropped to improve hearing. An erect ear can localize sound source within a 5 degree cone, whereas a dropped ear can only localize a sound source in a 20 degree cone. Cropped ears are less likely to become infected due to greater air flow to the ear canal. Cropped ears are also more difficult for an intruder to grab a hold of.
 
Tails are docked to, again to make it more difficult for an intruder to grab. There is also a greatly reduced risk of tail injury to a docked tail.
 
It is my opinion that if people are not supportive of cropping & docking, should stick with breeds whose breed standard does not call for cropping & docking.  Therefore, they do not have to deal with this issue.
 
I believe that people who support banning of cropping & docking should step back & re-evaluate their positions. If cropping & docking are banned, then what is next? Should owners of overweight dogs be fined or have their dogs removed from their home. Obviously, an overweight dog is not as healthy as a fit dog. Could this not be considered “cruel” as well?

I'm editing this reply because it was overly snarky.  I do not like the red herring tactic.  "If we prevent cosmetic surgery our dogs could be taken for being fat".  That's a red herring.  Docking and cropping is already illegal in some countries.  Maybe they can let us know if their fat dogs are stolen from them.  I just don't see that. 
Another big red herring.  "You'll neuter but you won't dock".  Dog's don't understand the consequences of their actions, and they never will.  They don't know mating = babies = unwanted puppies = death of offspring.  You have to make that decision.  Maybe someone could clear up what exactly harm a dog with all his ears could do to other dogs that just starts a domino effect of horror and death?  Or maybe that's a -really- silly argument?  Silly is my opinion.

As for infant ear piercing, if anecdotal evidence is good enough to prove the argument, my mother had my ears pierced as an infant.  When I grew up the holes became aligned differently.  So one earing is higher than the other side.  And the right piercing is very prone to infection.    I went 10 years without wearing an earring, then my dad got me some earrings, slid right in.  So, should a scared adult be able to make the choice to take the risk?  Or should an infant just be subject to it and never have a choice in the matter?  I'd have rather been afraid of the needle than spend my life dealing with constant infections in a hole that will never heal over.  But that's just me. Maybe others really like the infections and stupid looking misaligned big holes.

I think there was a reason for all breeds to be cropped or docked at one time.....and I'm sure almost none of those breeds are used for the purpose that they were bred...

Being a JRT person, I know a lot of JRT people. I have contacts with rescue folks, breeders, etc. I occasionally pull a dog from a shelter or a FTGH ad, and help transport it to a safe place. LOTS of contacts. Over half of them hunt their dogs, in the woods, with wild animals, with the risk of losing their dogs. Most of the rest of them at *least* play hunting games with thier dogs, myself included in the latter half. JRT with full tails (and JRT who are shaped like Emma[] she's too heavy boned) cannot go to ground and hunt effectively. The tails are docked to be a hand's length, *just* so the dog can be pulled out, if need be. As far as I know, no undocked JRT has been finished in either the AKC or the JRTCA, but I could easily be wrong.

First off, No it is NOT the owners Choice. I dock all my tails, there is no debate, I will not leave a tail at a potential owners request. All my babies are done at a very young age (2-3 days old) where they are all still being evaluated for Show. I have had people ask me If I would leave the tail, sometimes even after the pup was already 2 weeks old, and had NO tail. I flat out told them NO. 1. It's already done and 2. Even if they were neborns the answer is NO. There is no discussion, No room for interpretation, It's a NO! Simple as that.

I'd love for a potential owner to tell me it's their choice, I'd inform them it's also their choice to find ANOTHER BREEDER!

ORIGINAL: AineCockers

First off, No it is NOT the owners Choice. I dock all my tails, there is no debate, I will not leave a tail at a potential owners request. All my babies are done at a very young age (2-3 days old) where they are all still being evaluated for Show. I have had people ask me If I would leave the tail, sometimes even after the pup was already 2 weeks old. I flat out told them NO. There is no discussion, No room for interpretation, It's a NO! Simple as that.

I'd love for a potential owner to tell me it's their choice, I'd inform them it's also their choice to find ANOTHER BREEDER!

 
 
ROFL[sm=bravo.gif]
 
 

i've never seen a cocker with a tail...can't imagine it!!

ORIGINAL: RidgebackGermansShep

i've never seen a cocker with a tail...can't imagine it!!

Here's a Beautiful example of a Cocker that's overseas that has a tail. This dog does not belong to me. I'm merely using it as an example. In the USA Cocker tails must be docked to be shown. They are trying to change this to optional but as of now, they are required by standard to be docked!

ORIGINAL: BEVOLASVEGAS

It is my opinion that if people are not supportive of cropping & docking, should stick with breeds whose breed standard does not call for cropping & docking.  Therefore, they do not have to deal with this issue.

 
Umm, three things, one in response to this, I'm not going to stay away from Doberman just because I don't want my dogs ears cropped. A good breeder, in my opinion, should let the new owner decide if they want to crop the pups ears or not. That to me would be like the breeder naming the puppy and saying you have to stick with this name even if you hate it. They may be different things, but it's the same arguement. Just because you support docking and cropping and I don't doesn't mean I should not get a Doberman. I already said in another thread, if I adopt my next one and the one I end up liking comes cropped, I'm not going to not take it. If I get a natural eared puppy from rescue or a good breeder, I'm going to keep it natural.
 
As well, I never said the new owner is the one who decides to dock. I said I understand why it's done so early and since I have no control over that I don't have as much of a problem with docking as I do with cropping. I still don't like it, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to get an Aussie again.
 
And for the conformation thing, most of those dogs  CAN'T do what they were bred to do. Look at the American German Shepherd, most police departments don't use them and import from other countries because the American German Shepherd can't do it's job due to it's favored conformation. And a lot of the conformation herding breeds can't herd or if they can they do it very poorly compared to the lines that were bred to herd. I'm positive my Aussie, even if I had introduced her to sheep as a puppy, would have just chased them or turned around and ran, this because she's from show lines, not herding lines. This is why there's such a divide between those who favor conformation and those who favor doing with their dog what it was bred to do.
 
Shiva
 

ORIGINAL: timsdat

i could never have this operation of ear cropping and tail docking done any more than i could get a baby's ears pieced or their weewee circumcised.
i cant condemn people that have these things done. they have their reasons. but SHAME on the AKC for making it a rule that it must be done for show purposes. SHAME i say!

Wait a minute.  Don't blame the AKC.  They don't write the breed standards, blame the national breed club.  They are the stewards of the breed standard and write it. 

So if you don't like dobe's crops and docks blame the national dobe club for that!!!!

Bad enough that the AKC supports Puppy  Mills, by soliciting  their registration  business.  No sense blaming them for cropping and docking  The AKC would sell their soul for a dollar...

[linkhttp://network.bestfriends.org/puppymills/news/11808.html]http://network.bestfriends.org/puppymills/news/11808.html[/link]


[linkhttp://www.friendsofanimals.org/programs/spay-neuter/puppy-mills-pet-shops-the-akc-basic-facts.html]http://www.friendsofanimals.org/programs/spay-neuter/puppy-mills-pet-shops-the-akc-basic-facts.html[/link]

[linkhttp://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/737886219]http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/737886219[/link]

A good breeder, in my opinion, should let the new owner decide if they want to crop the pups ears or not.

A good breeder's first responsibility is to produce healthy puppies that conform as closely as possible to breed standard.  Cropping is still heavily favored in my breed's standard, therefore it would only make sense that pups sold by a good breeder would be cropped. 

  That to me would be like the breeder naming the puppy and saying you have to stick with this name even if you hate it.

Some reputable breeders do give their show prospect pups registered names before the pups go to their new home.  This doesn't mean that you can't pick the call name.

And for the conformation thing, most of those dogs  CAN'T do what they were bred to do.

 

I, again, beg to differ with you.  There are a large number of conformation Dobes who have their Ch. who also have titles in obedience, & schutzhund , as well as their WACs.  I don't believe that conformation dogs can't do what they were bred to do.  The problem is that many are not allowed, by their owners, to do what they are bred to do.

another thing to add is that not all pups are always spoken for when it comes time to dock or crop. Docking is done at 2-3 days, so it's more rare that all pups are spoken for. cropping is a little more likely, since it's usually not done until 8 weeks. But, a breeder probably doesn't want to have a bunch of natural eared pups because i doubt most people want to pay $2000 for one.

if i went to a breeder expecting to pay 2000 dollars with the request to keep it natural and they told me a flat out "no" then i WOULD take my money elsewhere.
if the dogs ARENT going to shown or entered in to competitions then whats the big freakin deal if they have ears and a tail!? its a PET! the only thing that needs to be cutt off a pet is his gonads!
keep the cropping and docking with the show and working dogs, yes. but if its going to be a family companion why would you even enter into a debate about it? its going to be lounging on a sofa with its family... chasing a tennis ball in the park.... going swimming at the lake.... most of these cropped and docked dogs will never see a show ring, so why are they forced to conform to a standard when they're being sold as a pet?

this is one reason why breeders need to have buyers before puppies.

I don't have a cropped or docked breed, but I understand the desire for cropping and docking.  It makes a dog look much more alert when it's ears are erect.  That is undeniable.    Not that a good ol' droopy eared dog won't make a good watchdog-but it's less likely to seem to a potential perpetrator to be a good watchdog.  I'd rather have a dog whose mere appearance discourages an intruder, than a dog that has to prove it time and time again.

Docking of tails I have no problem with in a majority of breeds.  Some tails are weak, and will break at the slightest contact with a wall, table, or other hard object. 

I wonder, how many of those against docking and cropping are non-opinionated over dewclaw removal?  And if they're against it, if they've ever had a dog that ripped it's dewclaw off while merely playing in the backyard...

this is one reason why breeders need to have buyers before puppies

 
i agree. I was just offering another perspective. I would adopt a dobe with floppy ears...it's cute, but i prefer a crop. Since i will be buying from a breeder though, i'm fine with the way she comes. I have seen some dobe breeders website that say a natural pup is like, $1500 and a cropped is about $1700. I haven't seen any options on tail docking yet.
 
Xerxes--i've witnessed tail docking and dew claw removal and out of the two, dew claw removal looks worse! ouch!