Cropping and Docking

i've heard that about bulldogs and some large flock guardian breeds but not for the dobermans.

i could never have this operation of ear cropping and tail docking done any more than i could get a baby's ears pieced or their weewee circumcised.
i cant condemn people that have these things done. they have their reasons. but SHAME on the AKC for making it a rule that it must be done for show purposes. SHAME i say!

 
Wait a minute.  Don't blame the AKC.  They don't write the breed standards, blame the national breed club.  They are the stewards of the breed standard and write it. 
 
So if you don't like dobe's crops and docks blame the national dobe club for that!!!!
 

So if you don't like dobe's crops and docks blame the national dobe club for that!!!!

I could be wrong, but I THINK she only meant as far as being able to show a natural dog, not the breed standard, but the ability to show the dog in it's natural form, without altering it to confrom to an outside institutions standard.  The AKC is it's own organization, they could very easily have a natural dog showing without the national dobe club's permission.

which is one reason why i dont like AC. its based on looks rather than ability..

 
In todays world how many people use their dog for their bred for purpose.  How many people with gun dogs hunt, people with sheep dogs own sheep.  It's kind of silly now since many of the functions dogs were bred for were farm related and how many people live on active farms.
 
 

The AKC is it's own organization, they could very easily have a natural dog showing without the national dobe club's permission.

 
The dog could show, any unneutered registered dog could show.  That isn't restricted.  They just won't win since they don't conform to the breed standard.  Btw,  The AKC is not is own organization.  It is a club of club's mainly made up of the national breed clubs and area kennel clubs.
 
 

My next dog will likely be cropped and maybe docked, one breed does both the other only the ears, I am looking at a show dogs as well. I feel it should be personal choice, if one wants to have it done, as long as its done properly, they should be allowed. We have enough other issues to deal with that allowing people to have a vet do these proceures should not be a big concern. I think that shutting down puppymills, fighting rings and irresponsible ownership should be a higher concern.

ORIGINAL: ruffian I think that shutting down puppymills, fighting rings and irresponsible ownership should be a higher concern.

which brings us back to my comment earlier. its a personal choice and as long as it isnt done at home with a pair of scissors then no one is getting hurt...  we need to focus on more important issues.

and the AKC stands for the American Kennel Club, correct? they do have their rules. who hires the judges to judge these breeds for Best in Show?
and the simple fact that you said

They just won't win since they don't conform to the breed standard.

proves my point. the AKC SANCTIONED JUDGE decides that.
and you would be surprised at the amount of bird dogs, herding dogs, and catch dogs that are still out there doing their jobs.
and if they cant do THAT there are other similar tests for these breeds. lure coursing, agility, santioned pheasant and duck hunts. these people who have the kind of dough it takes to partake in a sanctioned AKC world cup dog show certainly have the dough to actually field test their dogs. they just choose not to. they'd rather spend hours making the dog stand on a little table with a noose around its neck so they can primp it for the club standard confirmation class.

The dog could show, any unneutered registered dog could show.  That isn't restricted.  They just won't win since they don't conform to the breed standard.  Btw,  The AKC is not is own organization.  It is a club of club's mainly made up of the national breed clubs and area kennel clubs.

Not sure about not winning though. I am on a Great Dane forum...consists of show and breeding dogs... started by Bubblegums breeder who shows also.  Obviously, Bubby is cropped.   The people on that forum attend the shows and the report the winners.  Not long ago...one of them reported a winner with uncropped ears....something that sure seemed to be looked down on.   
I think Bubby is beautiful with her ears done...however if I had the choice I would not have done it.   The breeders do them themselves on my GD forum.        My vet that I work for does not do crops or docks...I'm not sure how many vets do.  
My sons Dane Ollie does not have cropped ears...truly I think he is so much cuter with them..and I love the way they flop around when I walk him.   But I have a dear friend who own Danes...loves them as much as I do...but she likes the cropped ones.   I guess its your preference.

I recall reading somewhere, not sure where, that cropping/docking of dobermans was to reduce the amount of things other dogs or attackers could grab hold of in a dog fight or whatever.  

I've heard this many times as well.  I've also read that the cropped ears give them a larger range of hearing or more accurate hearing...something like that.  But then again, only necessary for Dobes working in law enforcement or personal protection.

I'm uncomfortable enough with cropping and docking to stick to breeds where I don't have to really think about it.  I prefer tails and prick ears, so GSDs and Malis give me an easy out. []

and the AKC stands for the American Kennel Club, correct? they do have their rules. who hires the judges to judge these breeds for Best in Show? 

 
The individual clubs hosting the show hire the judges.  The breed clubs educate the judges on how to interpert the breed standard.  The judges are not employeesof the AKC they just are certified by the AKC to judge partictular breed and guess who has a big say on whether a judge will be certified to judge a partictular breed.  The national breed club. 
 

proves my point. the AKC SANCTIONED JUDGE decides that.

 
Guess what.  If a judge didn't follow the standard to the point of putting up a dog that wasn't cropped for docked when the standard called for it that person would be removed from the ability to judge that breed since they were so blantly ignoring the standard.  You know who would make the biggest push for that.  The national breed club.
 

and you would be surprised at the amount of bird dogs, herding dogs, and catch dogs that are still out there doing their jobs.

 
Somehow I doubt that very many NYC labs are out there hunting or any dogs besides a border collie that actually are on working farms. 
 

I think there was a reason for all breeds to be cropped or docked at one time.....and I'm sure almost none of those breeds are used for the purpose that they were bred...so consequently don't need their their ears cropped or tail docked. 
We took our Sammy dog (English Bull/terrior) to be docked because she looked just like her mama as a baby...the EB. The vet got their late and we decided that was our "act of God" and took her home. Thank goodness...she grew up looking just like a Pit Bull and nothing like the EB that should have their tails docked.  And it was the cutest tail besides!
 
However..one thing I can say about docked tails on certain breeds... such as the Great Dane. They have very long and powerful tails....and they injure them frequently.   Our Ollie had blood all over my house a few times because he wagged it into a doorway and broke it right open...then continued to wag it...blood flying all over the place.      Then when I went to pick out my Dane (which ended up being Bubblgum) one of the males there had their tail chained to his body because he had broken it open so many times that it would not heal.   Guess Danes are one breed that should be docked...

ORIGINAL: corvus
I guess I see it as like getting the ears of a child under 2 years pierced, only worse because you're taking off half the ear rather than just putting a hole in it. I have seen people with babies under 12 months with pierced ears and it gives me the willies because it seems so selfish. My mother refused to let me get my ears pierced until I was old enough to understand what that meant and how to look after them afterwards and appreciated that it was pretty permanent. I thank her for that.

Okay, I have to disagree with what you said about piercing a babies ears. I had my ears pierced when I was a baby and I'm very glad I did. I lived with my aunt and uncle for a while and both me and my sister wanted our ears double pierced. My aunt and uncle wouldn't let us because according to them only tramps had their ears pierced more than once. If we hadn't had our ears pierced once already, they probably wouldn't have even let us get them pierced. I knew someone who was so afraid of having her ears pierced(and she was a teenager) that her doctors actually agreed to do it or let it be done while she out for some surgery. If she had had them done as a baby she never would have had to be afraid of having it done as it already would have been done.  

As for cropping, I definately think that should be the decision of the new onwer. Docking, I understand why it's done so early and seeing as I have no choice over it, like I already said, I'm not as against it. I'd rather neither be done, but I prefer docking to cropping. I think the cropping for Dobermans was to make them look more fearsome seeing as they were used for guard dogs. In our state of people being so afraid of certain breeds, Dobermans with natural ears would look less threatening to the average person. Plus, most people have never seen a natural eard Doberman so they don't know that's what it is.

Shiva

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[blockquote]quote:

proves my point. the AKC SANCTIONED JUDGE decides that.[/blockquote]


Guess what.  If a judge didn't follow the standard to the point of putting up a dog that wasn't cropped for docked when the standard called for it that person would be removed from the ability to judge that breed since they were so blantly ignoring the standard.  You know who would make the biggest push for that.  The national breed club.

 
But on my Great Dane forum that I am on,,,its all show and breeding people and me...who was invited by Bubblegums breeder to join to bring some "pet" questions to the board.  Of course my first question was do you have to crop their ears and if not, why do you.  They said that the Dane no longer had to be cropped to win..but they feel that since it was the standard Dane...they want to do it.   However...as I said before...I remember when they were all kind of down hearted after one show when an uncropped Dane won.  They were NOT nice about it in their comments on our forum...however that uncropped Dane did win.[/blockquote]

ORIGINAL: DumDog
and the AKC stands for the American Kennel Club, correct? they do have their rules. who hires the judges to judge these breeds for Best in Show?
and the simple fact that you said

They just won't win since they don't conform to the breed standard.

proves my point. the AKC SANCTIONED JUDGE decides that. 

The clubs holding the shows hire the judges---and the judges use the breed standard. (The club could be an all-breed club or a speciality club.)

For example, the boxer breed standard says this about ears:

  Set at the highest points of the sides of the skull, the ears are customarily cropped, cut rather long and tapering, and raised when alert. If uncropped, the ears should be of moderate size, thin, lying flat and close to the cheeks in repose, but falling forward with a definite crease when alert.

So a boxer can have uncropped ears and NOT be penalized.

As for the tail:

  The tail is set high, docked, and carried upward. An undocked tail should be severely penalized.

So the tail must be docked to stand a chance of winning a show.

Originally the breed standard was a way of telling if the dog could do the job it was designed to do (does a dog have the right size, shape of mouth, etc to fetch a heavy game bird over rough ground) but many breed clubs have wandered from that purpose.

So I say blame the breed clubs for any gripes about cropping, docking, weird-shaped heads or eye problems.  Sometimes the results of changes to breed standards are startling---at least to me---particularly when the decisions seem based on something other than performing a typically canine function. For example, the Bull Terrier.

The three skulls in the center photo are from purebred bull terriers in 1931, 1950 and 1976.
 
PS: First set of skulls is St. Bernard 1850, 1921, 1967; last is Newfoundland 1926, 1964, 1971

ORIGINAL: DumDog

the AKC SANCTIONED JUDGE decides that.
and you would be surprised at the amount of bird dogs, herding dogs, and catch dogs that are still out there doing their jobs.
and if they cant do THAT there are other similar tests for these breeds. lure coursing, agility, santioned pheasant and duck hunts. these people who have the kind of dough it takes to partake in a sanctioned AKC world cup dog show certainly have the dough to actually field test their dogs. they just choose not to. they'd rather spend hours making the dog stand on a little table with a noose around its neck so they can primp it for the club standard confirmation class.

Now now. . let's not forget that conformation has its merits as well AND a lot of show people also hunt and herd with their dogs. Field trials and herding trials may test the dog's ability to work, but what is the use of a dog with lots of instinct that is built so poorly it cannot run around in the field for hours on end? Sure the show dogs may LOOK pretty, but there is more to just their good looks. .  they have the structure that would allow them to be able to work their body to its fullest potential.

And while that digression was a bit unnecessary, I'd also like to touch on the fact that the AKC is not setting the standards nor does the AKC tell the judges how to judge. The AKC is a registry. . they like to collect money on show entries and they like to collect money on registrations and occasionally start hot-button issues on topics that could potentially make them more money. They're not going to tell the breed clubs what to do because the AKC knows diddly squat about the breeds.

The AKC also does not put on shows, nor does it hire the judges to judge the shows. So blaming the AKC for allowing such travesties as cropping and docking is quite inane because the AKC has no say in the matter. They are a club of clubs, not a government.

Personally I have nothing against cropping or docking or any other alteration, as long as it is done humanely and cared for properly afterward. Animals are adaptable creatures and they don't spend years in therapy because they lost a tail or part of their ears. Humans are the only ones who have a psychological attachment to body parts. Dogs that are cropped and docked recover shortly after their operations, get on with life and live happily and normally. We don't sit and dwell on the fact that Fido had his testicles taken away because "oh its for his own good", but the moment any other body part is altered the people who choose to have elective surgery on their animals are considered evil mutilators. Its surgery. You're electing to put your dog under and having parts taken out, whether they be a uterus, testicles, ears, claws or tail.

Well, to each his own I guess. Thats the nice thing about living in the US. . you have the choice. If you don't want your dog cropped, then don't crop.