Cropping and Docking

Jennie--what is your current breed of oogling?
 
 
 
 
When i get a dobe, i will take her as she comes. From a breeder she'll be about 12 weeks, cropped and completely healed. That's fine with me.

i feel that it serves the same purpose as circumcision. its a personal choice for personal reasons. as long as its not done at home with a pair of scissors then leave it be.
make some laws that are useful.... like banning fake bull testicles.[8|]

Who's  "personal" decision is the circumcision? I'm an anti-RIC activist.  RIC would be routine infant circumcision.  Don't care what an adult does to himself as a personal decision.  But it's not a personal decision when you are doing it to SOMEONE ELSE.  That's taking away a personal decision.

Dogs aren't human.  They will never grow up and be able to consider the pros and cons of a surgery, or the consequences of their actions (like mating will produce puppies).  So the decisions HAVE to be made for them.  They can't and never will be able to make the decision for themselves. 

I actually offer a sincere apology for not being able to not post this.  I absolutely foam at the mouth when dogs and humans are compared to justify the decisions made for another human, OR for an animal. 

Also, it's a funny comparison to say people do things to themselves so they should be able to do it to their dogs.
If I was a cutter, would that make it ok to cut my dog?  I'm not taking a position in this debate.  Well I have a position.  But I'm not going to argue it.  I'm just curious if anyone really considers that to be a solid argument for cropping/docking. 

lol, I love debates.  I have a hard time staying out of them.  I'm not going to try to argue my position.  But I love jumping in the middle and playing devils advocate to both sides.    

dont get too steamed [] i dont like circumcision on infants either (both of my boys are all natural) but you DO know, as well as i do, that many people dont understand the reasons for cropping and docking OR circumcision. which is why i compared them.

many people, and i have heard this with my own ears, think some breeds NEED their tails docked (yes i said breeds, specific to some breeds only) because they wag tails so hard they either break them or hurt anyone standing near by.
some also believe the ears stay cleaner if they are lopped off. or it improves hearing.. "how can you possibly hear anything with a leather flap covering your ear drums?"
as with circumcision... its cleaner... it helps prevent aids(????HOW?!) it looks more normal, because it says so in the Bible, etc and so on. the bible says many things about circumcision, its as clean as you want to keep it, and if you were born with it(birth defects aside) then it should stay put... my own beliefs.
but you also know that people will do what they want. i was browbeat and challenged and questioned left and right over my choices in not circumcising my kids. but i did my research YEARS before i was married. if, later on, they feel weird and abnormal then they can talk to a doctor about it and have it done then. they'll handle the anesthetics a lot better when they're older than as infants. and it hurts just as much when they're babies as it does when they're older.
besides that... if you dont have insurance then you pay for the circ out of your own pocket.... why? cause its considered cosmetic surgery.
which is the same as cropping and docking. if you have problems with the tail or ears then and they must be removed then you have no choice. its for the dog's survival and health.


now to be honest i like the looks of cropped and docked dogs but i WONT ever pay for it to be done. i would adopt a doberman or boxer that is already cropped and docked.. but wont get that done myself if i ever bought one from a breeder.
have a look around on the net and see how many natural dobie picturess are there.... i found one then got tired of looking lol
and these were rescued dobies as well as from breeders.
one of my dogs, Ben, has a docked tail.... but that was another man's choice. not mine. if i had my way he'd have his tail. but he is just as good without it as he is with it..

i also believe if the dog has a high risk job - hunting dogs mostly, catch dogs especially - then its a risk to have loose bits available for a hog to rip off.... but.... i know a lot of hog hunters that dont crop or dock.. so that sort of blows that out of the water. its still a matter of opinion. some prefer to remove the problem before it becomes a problem at the worst possible time. spaying and neutering to prevent the possibility of cancer is a fine example of that logic. it MIGHT get cancer so lets spay and neuter.. it MIGHT get its hears ripped off by a hog so lets cut them off before it happens.
some would say that spaying and neutering is against the dog's will just like cropping and docking...... what right do we have to decide that for them?
i know, its silly.... but this kind of logic is what peta is yapping about. we're dictating our own thoughts and feelings and forcing these decisions on our dogs because we feel its in their best interest.

personally i dont think the ears or tail make the dog. just like clothes dont make the man. you're either a good person or you're not. its either a good dog or its not, regardless of its tail and ears.

funniest thing i ever saw was an old timer with an old bulldog (pitty type)... the dog had one ear.... i had to ask why. first he joked about only being able to afford half the cropping by the vet.. then he said ... actually he got into a fight when he was a puppy.. and his brother tore his ear off..... he didnt see any point in removing the other to make them match either and having more stitches on the dog's head. and the ear was totally completely gone. this wasnt a routine bulldog crop job. no self respecting vet would agree to doing such a thing just to "even things up a bit"
as it was, the dog's missing ear left him wide open to all kinds of problems.

I'm not steamed, I'm ready to see a raging intelligent (but not angry) debate.  lol  I looove them.

The neighbors just got a new dobie (I'd say he HAD to be a mix, his face doesn't look quite right) from the shelter.  His name is "Moose".  It's SO fitting.  He has the longest tail and best ears ever.  The tail looks kind of like a ?  Like he doesn't have complete control of his whole tail like other dogs seem to.  It almost seems like the control of his tail starts about 1/4 the way away from his butt.  He can wag it of course, but when he moves it toward him to nip an itch or something, it starts curling farther from his body than my dog's tail (which starts that curve from the base).

The ears I really don't buy.  Dogs have better hearing than us with or without that flap.  Too many dogs on this planet prove that every day.  I love big floppy ears too.  They are so soft. 

I'm weird, because I like how a docked tail looks, but I would never do it to a dog.  Because I'd be horrified if my mom had my butt chopped off at birth, for real... LOL

yeah my dobie mixes all had the question mark shaped tail. i always thought it was an endearing quality. they didnt wag it.. they wiggled it lol which is what the tip was doing, even though the base was wagging, the tip end was doing its own thing lol

there have been times when Kaydee was whacked me a good one across the kneecap with her tail.... its been those times that i wish she WAS docked.... but now that she can hardly wag it anymore, i miss that about her. she had "happy tail" for sure. always made me cringe when she would bang it several times into a door jam or against something hard. she dented one of the cars once with it - dont tell my husband! he is blaming a shopping cart[:-]

she is able to move it more each day but for a long time i was worried about it being dead weight and having to remove it for safety and health reasons.

she would look funky with her piggy ears and no tail.... not in a good way either.

Wait til you take a wag in the eyeball.  I get slapped in the face with that sucker all the time.  But the worst was when he hit me full in the eyeball.  He was never closer in his life to experiencing a home made tail docking... looool  You hold the dog, I'll grab the knife!!!  That's what I said.  I'd never do such a thing, but it sounded like a brilliant idea right that moment

ORIGINAL: talenak

Who's  "personal" decision is the circumcision? I'm an anti-RIC activist.  RIC would be routine infant circumcision.  Don't care what an adult does to himself as a personal decision.  But it's not a personal decision when you are doing it to SOMEONE ELSE.  That's taking away a personal decision.

Dogs aren't human.  They will never grow up and be able to consider the pros and cons of a surgery, or the consequences of their actions (like mating will produce puppies).  So the decisions HAVE to be made for them.  They can't and never will be able to make the decision for themselves. 

I actually offer a sincere apology for not being able to not post this.  I absolutely foam at the mouth when dogs and humans are compared to justify the decisions made for another human, OR for an animal. 

Also, it's a funny comparison to say people do things to themselves so they should be able to do it to their dogs.
If I was a cutter, would that make it ok to cut my dog?  I'm not taking a position in this debate.  Well I have a position.  But I'm not going to argue it.  I'm just curious if anyone really considers that to be a solid argument for cropping/docking. 

lol, I love debates.  I have a hard time staying out of them.  I'm not going to try to argue my position.  But I love jumping in the middle and playing devils advocate to both sides.    

Thank you! Sensible arguments. But now you've done it and I'm going to have to add my little rant.

I guess I see it as like getting the ears of a child under 2 years pierced, only worse because you're taking off half the ear rather than just putting a hole in it. I have seen people with babies under 12 months with pierced ears and it gives me the willies because it seems so selfish. My mother refused to let me get my ears pierced until I was old enough to understand what that meant and how to look after them afterwards and appreciated that it was pretty permanent. I thank her for that.

I also think it's bizarre, because I think people would think you were crazy and barbaric if you decided you thought, say, your horse looked better without ears and sheared them off. Somehow I don't think the explanation that you'd had it done by a responsible vet and done everything you could for the pain afterwards would make people think it was okay.

In this country, we've been so long without ear cropping that I'd never seen a cropped dog until I visited America. I was so unused to the look of them that I was frankly repulsed. Which just says a lot for how notions of beauty can change so quickly. I haven't met a single Australian that doesn't think cropped ears on a dog makes the dog look weird and freaky. The point I'm trying to make is that notions of how a dog is 'meant to look' are not set in stone and can change within a generation. Undocked dobes and the likes look slightly odd to me at the moment, but for every one I see, they look a little more normal.

Jennie--what is your current breed of oogling?




When i get a dobe, i will take her as she comes. From a breeder she'll be about 12 weeks, cropped and completely healed. That's fine with me.

Dobes[] Same thing. Pretty much everybody sells them pre-cropped-and-docked, fully healed.  I'm not at all bothered by that. I'm far more bothered by people who sell them with natural ears and tails, without choosing homes with any care.

yay for dobes! 
obviously this is a little OT, but are you gonna get one? I'm gonna wait until i finish up nursing school and then i'm getting one.

obviously this is a little OT, but are you gonna get one?

Yes, that's the plan. When I'm ready for another dog, I'll be living alone. The Dobe will serve as a visual deterrant and household Goober.

I have seen people with babies under 12 months with pierced ears and it gives me the willies because it seems so selfish.

try WATCHING it happen!!
i was with my sister at a hair appointment when a young mom - maybe between ages 18 and 21 - brought her infant baby girl in for piercings. the kid was cooing and smiling one second, totally trusting her mom, and then BANG!!
OMG i never wanted to KILL someone SOOOO bad!!! i was almost in tears just watching it..... the poor baby was screaming her head off before they were done and didnt stop even after it was over with.

i remember my stepmom getting my ears pierced when i was three... she didnt explain that it would hurt. my mom was furious about it..... she took the ear rings away.. and to this day you dont come near my ears with needles in your hands....

i could never have this operation of ear cropping and tail docking done any more than i could get a baby's ears pieced or their weewee circumcised.
i cant condemn people that have these things done. they have their reasons. but SHAME on the AKC for making it a rule that it must be done for show purposes. SHAME i say!

i think in the AKC you can show a natural dog. I've seen natural ears at an AKC sanctioned show, but never a natural tail. I do think it's more difficult to win with a natural dog though...
 
In the schutzhund ring there are a lot of natural dobes...tails and all! I like floppy ears on dobes (but prefer a crop) but i'm not a huge fan of the tail...

I do think it's more difficult to win with a natural dog though...

which is one reason why i dont like AKC. its based on looks rather than ability.. and i'm not talking about the random few that like to do obedience and agility or other sports with their show ring dogs. i commend them for doing it..
however...
would a border collie herd sheep worse if it didnt have its tail and ears?
could a doberman not bite as hard or guard as well if it had tail and ears?
i think in the case of a dobie you have the fact that it looks ten times more vicious without ears and tails.
a natural dobie looks like a cute cuddly hound mutt.

this is not a dober mix, not a rottie mix, nor is it a black and tan coon hound mix. but a purebred dog.
Dobies that are natural tend to look like this. in the age that they were created... if some non tax paying citizen saw you walking this dog and trying to use it for intimidation he would probably laugh.... this IS a scent hound called a Brandlbrache. my guess is that Dobermann cropped and docked his creation to differentiate his guard dog from the hound dog... just a guess though.

I recall reading somewhere, not sure where, that cropping/docking of dobermans was to reduce the amount of things other dogs or attackers could grab hold of in a dog fight or whatever.