How do you know the pack order?

No wonder I was uncertain; it sounds like there are a lot of different opinions here too![8|]
 
It looks like we're doing just fine here so far then.  Since I didn't know which was which anyway, I've been doing what most of you do; I'm #1 and they all end up #2 in "my structure".  I do believe they have their own pecking order, but my main concern was whether or not I needed to be in on it!  According to most of you, I don't. 
 
I keep a close eye on all 4 of them, and I do have a 5th one (my foster dog), but he is kept separated in his own quarters  anyway.  He gets his own one on one time with me. [sm=wink2.gif]
 
I need to break out the clicker for their Tzu Mix; he doesn't even know "sit", so he ends up getting his cookie and meals for nothing.[&:]   He does know how to fetch a ball, but he learned that on his own; he's obsessed with the ball!  I guess that shoud be my training reward, since he's already on the heavy side.
 
Thanks so much for all of your responses and opinions.  This is the only place I can come to discuss these things, since most people I would talk to will reply "they're only dogs"[:@]

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Aw, geeze!  Am I supposed to be following some sort of rules I didn't know about?

When I come home, if the dogs are loose in the house, I greet the calmest first.  If not, whoever is QUIET gets let out of the crate for outside first.  When it's time for a meal, again, whoever is quiet gets the first bowl.  Might be Thor, might be Theo, but it's usually Shadow since he's smart enough to make that connection.  And the two who eat upstairs always get theirs last just because they are upstairs and I'm downstairs when I serve it up.  When I'm handing out treats?  Whoever's butt hits the floor first gets the first treat.  But, if the butt leaves the floor, my hand closes.  And if someone ELSE puts their nose in the way, they miss a turn.  I don't care who it is.  We sit and stay for treats or we don't get any.  And we don't try to snatch someone ELSES treat from my hand.  Manners are important.

I'm number 1, and frankly, I don't worry about who is number two or three or four or........it changes too much to keep track of.  I don't "support the alpha" by feeding or anything else first.  I feed and everything else based on behavior.  And, the two who sleep upstairs don't do so because of any elevated status in the pack....the 4 boys who sleep in their crates, with the exception of Theo who still likes to eat stuff like pillows, blankets, etc....CHOOSE to sleep in their unlocked crates.  I'd have no problem, other than trying to get out of bed without stepping on someone, with having them ALL upstairs at nite.  It's happened a few times and there isn't any fussing.....my only issue is with them taking turns on the bed and the all nite rotation that happens on my WATER bed.....some mornings I wake up seasick!

So, if I'm screwing up my pack, sure hope someone will enlighten me......

No body is screwing up here, you have your rules in your pack and i have my rules, as easy as that, both work fine [] , i dont remember saying another way is not the correct one but some people believe that if my rules are not like theirs then i'm wrong, well they are mine, it works for me and thats the way i like it []

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I thought you only had the one dog, Camilla?  Is there a second or third dog as well?

Yes sir, i often dogsit my friend dogs and when i mean often i mean reaaaaally often and viceversa, they are a lab and another schnauzer, they spend as much time in my house than in his, we are neighbors, i posted pics of them too before, you can say we share the pack (but here between us i take care of them better that he does actually [])

Quite frankly, Chuffy's post is right on the money.  To assume otherwise would imply that dogs, social and hierarchical beings that they are, simply stop communicating to one another once they settle on a "permanent" rank order (in fact, there's nothing permanent about it - rank sometimes changes with age, infirmity, addition of another dog to the pack, etc.).  In fact, that order may be settled for the time being, but they still question each other about it.  For example, you might not notice a subtle and infinitesmal "freeze" glance, but another dog will, and will then walk right by the couch that they might have jumped up on, had the boss dog not signalled that he didn't want to share that space right now...

And what i answered before to Chuffy is the same answer for you []

Generally, your answers are the same for everyone, since they all come from the same theorist, so I'm not the least bit offended. [sm=devil.gif]

ORIGINAL: espencer

I believe that not having a leader is unnatural for dogs, they need someone to follow; just like a pack can have 2 alphas, also a pack can have all of them betas with only one alpha, a pack with 2 alphas does not have one trying to be more alpha than the other, there is not alpha.1 and alpha.2 because that makes alpha.2 into a beta actually and the rest are the followers. Can you tell a pack with 2 alphas "no, i am sorry, your pack needs to have only one #1, one #2 and one #3 and if not then you are unnatural" ? or whatever the combinations you want it to be?, you well know there is packs with 2 alphas

They still have a structure buy every pack can have a different one, like we say in my town "there is no worse blind person than the one who does not want to see"

I to break it to ya espencer but in most packs there are two alphas and they get along just fine.  Alpha male and alpha female.  If it were any different then there'd be no puppies. 

I'm not going to argue about your  "I'm #1 and they are all #2" notion.  I think it's fine if it works for you.  In your case though, the two other #2 dogs are visitors, albeit frequent visitors, which makes it much less likely for you to notice any subtle differences or deferences that they may display.  Alpha signals can be as subtle as how the tail is carried-not just how high, but in what position, is the tip curled over or pointed.  But that's moot in your case because it looks like your pupper carries a somewhat curly tail, and a schnauzer only has a nubbin. 

I'm glad that it works for you.  Just be aware that in MOST cases there are subtle position changes that can indicate stratification within the pack, as well as many other little indicators.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I to break it to ya espencer but in most packs there are two alphas and they get along just fine.  Alpha male and alpha female.  If it were any different then there'd be no puppies. 

I'm not going to argue about your  "I'm #1 and they are all #2" notion.  I think it's fine if it works for you.  In your case though, the two other #2 dogs are visitors, albeit frequent visitors, which makes it much less likely for you to notice any subtle differences or deferences that they may display.  Alpha signals can be as subtle as how the tail is carried-not just how high, but in what position, is the tip curled over or pointed.  But that's moot in your case because it looks like your pupper carries a somewhat curly tail, and a schnauzer only has a nubbin. 

I'm glad that it works for you.  Just be aware that in MOST cases there are subtle position changes that can indicate stratification within the pack, as well as many other little indicators.

I will pay attention next time they are together to see if i'm missing something []

my only issue is with them taking turns on the bed and the all nite rotation that happens on my WATER bed.....some mornings I wake up seasick!

 
GSDs in a water bed?
Glenda, you are one brave woman, when we had a water bed I couldn't stand DH getting in and out of it, I couldn't imagine big dogs jumping in and out.
 
Has that bed sprung a leak, yet?[]

Several actually, but those are all from Sheba deciding to bury something good up under the pillows.  None from normal usage.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Several actually, but those are all from Sheba deciding to bury something good up under the pillows.  None from normal usage.

Define "normal" [][]

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
Post some video of your dogs and we can comment.

That is such a good idea! I'd love to see footage of how other people's dogs interracted. I don't have a video recorder, but I'd totally love to see other people's dog behaviour videos. []

I posted this a while back in the photo's section, but this is a short video I made of Conrad and Marlowe playing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZF_zZ6Gzck

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: dogslyfe

Even though I am alpha and when I speak, they do respond, they still have their own pecking order as well, right? I don't want to inadvertently create a rank issue among them.

I actually don't ascribe to the "treating them by pack rank" theory. As far as I'm concerned, I'm the leader, and they're all just a bunch of "also rans". Today I might set the lowest dog's food down first... tomorrow I might give the two beta dogs their foods first. I ignore the dogs as I come in the door, then give pets for those who sit and act nicely for it. This seems to work out fine for us - and I have five dogs. That's just the way I do things though! Pack order can be so fluid and non-human that IMO it sometimes can be hard to figure out who is alpha, anyway.

I think this is a great way to handle things, especially if you have difficulty knowing which are the higher ranking dogs in your pack. If you check the archives, I think I posted a method for determining the "true dominant" dog in a household. Maybe someone can find it and repost.

DARNIT! I looked for that post (I remember it) but can't find it. It was a great post. I'm probably searching incorrectly.

No longer addressing Anne specifically:

I should clarify to say that I am aware of pack order and structure - but I treat the dogs all equally, rather than catering to the alpha. This is my choice in how to treat them, but I'm aware of the posturing and such that goes on. The pack structure of my pack seems to be *very* fluid and situational, but I can tell you which of my female's comes out on top in certain situations. I think part of this stems from the fact that I don't have a single female who is comfortable being alpha all the time, so it's not all that well defined for me. I do, however, have one female who tries to get a leg up on my oldest female from time to time - as the older of them is arthritic. I can always tell when she's in pain because she and the younger dog start getting very snarky with each other. Once I address the older dog's pain, things quiet down.

I'd also like to point out that pack order and such is not as much of an issue when I have dogs over that don't live with us. The resident dogs seem to understand this, and I don't see much negotiating or posturing when dogs come over to *visit* - even if they come often. They're not being officially assimilated into the pack, and my dogs seem to understand this.

Oh, and as for the male alpha, my Pap male, Zippy, is the undisputed king of everything that matters - at least for now. They're all very respectful of his space. Well, all but the puppy.

I'm trying to figure out how I would go about forcing my dogs to all be equal-status "betas" and I can't. It would lead to utter chaos-- how would they know who gets first dibs on the best sleeping spot? they'd all have to fight for it every day, instead of quietly letting the higher-ranking dogs take it if they want it. It's very important, and good, that dogs set up heirarchies and don't all take the same status.

ORIGINAL: dogslyfe  I'd also like to point out that pack order and such is not as much of an issue when I have dogs over that don't live with us.

So, it's "possible" that the reason they seem to have things sorted out is because my dogs don't really consider them a threat yet?  Maybe since it's only been 1 week, they are just waiting for them to leave?  Does that mean things may not go as smoothly next month as they have this week?[&:]

I'm trying to figure out how I would go about forcing my dogs to all be equal-status "betas" and I can't.

I don't know if you're replying to me or houndlove on this, but here's my take:

I don't force any dog into any particular status. I find when I am a confident leader they figure out that stuff for themselves (without being stupid about it). I'm just saying I choose not to *actively* throw support in the direction of one dog or the other - because the dog that gets resource preference in one situation (ie June always gets the coveted couch position) is not always the dog that gets the coveted resource in another situation (ie June is usually the LAST dog out the door). I personally don't have a clearly defined alpha female in all situations, and for MY PERSONAL pack position I believe it would wreck havoc if I tried to support one dog as such.

JMO though, based solely on my personal situation.

Tzumommy, I don't know really. I know with my pack that it usually takes 3-4 days before the honeymoon is over and they start trying to re-establish pack orders. I think it's entirely possible they may have it all figured out already.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

I posted this a while back in the photo's section, but this is a short video I made of Conrad and Marlowe playing.

[linkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZF_zZ6Gzck]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZF_zZ6Gzck[/link]

Great video!  And would be highly relevant on the other thread where we said about rank and play.... oh gawd now I'm doing it, time to take the white coat off and stay out of the CM section.....[]

Edited to put white coat back on and add:  In our house the younger, stronger dog pushes herself forward for everything when it comes to treats, dinner or affection despite the fact that if someone else sits first they get rewarded first and despite the fact that when I'm doling out affection I ignore anyone being pushy and wait for them to cool it.  She will also always be first out of the door when they go out into the garden - the others hang back to allow this.  (There is no order for coming back in.... whoever is closest to the door.  Maybe they have the good sense to abandon rank and just get in the warm?)  Yet the grouchy old male takes first dibs at playtime and she allows this with no problems - when chasing toys she knows he has to be the one to bring it back and when they tug, although she sometimes manages to get it during the game he ultimately ends up with it every time.  We play fetch with them seperately as a way of spending quality time with them seperately and also because the older male flatly refuses to let anyone else bring the toy back.  They chase it but have to wait for him to retrieve it.  The pushy youngster licks his face a lot (subordinate gesture?) but will also stand over him and will frequently deliberately sit on him to make him move over and share his sleeping spot.  I have no idea which would be considered the highest ranked dog in our house.... provided they defer to me I don't really care!