How do you know the pack order?

Haha, yeah I need to try to fine some way of blocking myself from going over there too. But notice that it's my dominant dog (Conrad, the larger of the two) who spends most of his time on his back during play. He likes it that way. He likes to have his scruff bit and he "demands" Marlowe do just that all the time. But there are little things he does that demonstrate his rank. Note that initially when Marlowe gets up on his back to initiate play, Conrad responds by simply standing with his head over Marlowe's back, a very dominant posture. And then at the end, they both simultaneously stop playing and shake, a signal for dogs in play that, "We're still playing now right? Right." One thing that doesn't come across is that at the beginning when they're playing "tug" with the nasty old stuffie carcass, you can't hear that Conrad actually growled and that's what made Marlowe let go instantly. In the video it just looks like he decided to just drop it.

It's just a silly video I made of my cute doggies, but there's a lot of dog behavior in there too.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I'm trying to figure out how I would go about forcing my dogs to all be equal-status "betas" and I can't. It would lead to utter chaos-- how would they know who gets first dibs on the best sleeping spot? they'd all have to fight for it every day, instead of quietly letting the higher-ranking dogs take it if they want it. It's very important, and good, that dogs set up heirarchies and don't all take the same status.

 
Have you try it? [] is really easy, the first dog to be calm is the first dog to get the food, and so on, if one of my dogs does not respect my rules then for sure he is not going to get the food first, about the best place to sleep goes well i think the floor is wide enough for all of them to have it , so all of them are in the best "spot" []

My little pack consists of a dog and a cat; no dog-to-dog posturing that I can observe...

We all agree that dogs are social, hierarchal beings and that the order within a pack is always fluid. In one study scientists observed that an alpha wolf would temporarily give control to one of the Beta wolves *in certain territories* - observing the subordinate wolf closely, following his directions. One of the assumptions was that leaders at times choose to relay on the experience of another pack member for survival; a member who, in this case, knew the territory better than Alpha did. This just demonstrates how relative the pack hierarchy can be... Now, how did that Alpha decide that Beta knew the territory better is open to our interpretation: body language, "energy", etc.

Having said that, in my house, the pack order is never fluid. It never is! If my cat and Jack were left to their own devices I would never see my cat - she would hide in her closet. If Jack was not constantly told to LEAVE IT (the cat), SIT STAY (while the cat eats), he'd get on her nerves by chasing her around, insisting to play, eating her treats by slowly pushing her out of the away, etc.

When the cat runs away, Jack looks like: "Oh well, let me find something else to do" - it's fine for him, not with me - I miss her. She got depressed when we brought a pup home, so we had to invent all sort of situations to get her to hang with us and ignore the pup. She can't tell him using feline language that she doesn't want to play - we have to intervene. Although Jack is learning that a raised paw in feline means "Go away" (same thing means "play with me" in canine, but the cat doesn't want to learn that . They get alone fine: sleep one one couch waiting for us to come home - she is on one side, he is on another. However, we still have to intervene in building the pack order, otherwise there would be a lot of pushing and hissing. It's just - "order", I'd do the same with my kids.

Conrad = LOVE! []

Marlowe is adorable, too, though. [] Hooray!

Conrad did pretty much what I do when one of the dogs comes along bumping into me, looking for attention or games. He was like, hey, I'll decide when we play. Okay, now. []

Have you try it? is really easy, the first dog to be calm is the first dog to get the food, and so on, if one of my dogs does not respect my rules then for sure he is not going to get the food first, about the best place to sleep goes well i think the floor is wide enough for all of them to have it , so all of them are in the best "spot"

 
that is exactly what I do-- I reward polite dogs and make no effort to "support" a dominant dog or whatever. But they still have their own pack heirarchy, and frankly I think it is good that they do. The whole point of having a pack heirarchy is to reduce fighting.  If they were all "equal" in status there would be fighting, and there isn't because they all know their places.
Example of a pack interaction at my house: We're walking around the boundary of the yard. The neighbor's puppy (who seems to live at my house more and more often these days) is out running ahead because he's full of endless energy, my alpha bitch is wandering around sniffing near me, and Baxter is walking behind me, making sure I'm safe. The puppy finds some yummy deer poop and starts gobbling it down. The alpha bitch and Baxter both notice and move towards him and he, being submissive to all the other dogs, backs off and offers them a chance to eat the poop if they want to.  Baxter, being submissive to the alpha bitch, politely waits to let her eat it; she sniffs and says no way, and moves on, Baxter sniffs and eats a little bit, moves on, and the puppy moves back in and gobbles some more.
Now, if they were all equal in status, the puppy WOULD NOT have automatically backed off when the two older dogs moved up, Baxter would not have politely let the bitch have first dibs, and there robably would have been a fight. Instead it was peaceful and relaxed.
If I had wanted to I could have moved in and claimed the deer poop for my own, but really, I didn't want any and was clearly signalling that to the dogs by not even approaching the poop.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

that is exactly what I do-- I reward polite dogs and make no effort to "support" a dominant dog or whatever. But they still have their own pack heirarchy, and frankly I think it is good that they do. The whole point of having a pack heirarchy is to reduce fighting.  If they were all "equal" in status there would be fighting, and there isn't because they all know their places.
Example of a pack interaction at my house: We're walking around the boundary of the yard. The neighbor's puppy (who seems to live at my house more and more often these days) is out running ahead because he's full of endless energy, my alpha bitch is wandering around sniffing near me, and Baxter is walking behind me, making sure I'm safe. The puppy finds some yummy deer poop and starts gobbling it down. The alpha bitch and Baxter both notice and move towards him and he, being submissive to all the other dogs, backs off and offers them a chance to eat the poop if they want to.  Baxter, being submissive to the alpha bitch, politely waits to let her eat it; she sniffs and says no way, and moves on, Baxter sniffs and eats a little bit, moves on, and the puppy moves back in and gobbles some more.
Now, if they were all equal in status, the puppy WOULD NOT have automatically backed off when the two older dogs moved up, Baxter would not have politely let the bitch have first dibs, and there robably would have been a fight. Instead it was peaceful and relaxed.
If I had wanted to I could have moved in and claimed the deer poop for my own, but really, I didn't want any and was clearly signalling that to the dogs by not even approaching the poop.

Thats funny [] i actually think that not having a hierarchy between themselves is what makes them not having fights, they dont have to be proving their status over an over, maybe in a household with 2 dominant dogs thats exactly what causes the fights and you have 2 dogs fighting for a higer status for years, dont let them to have a status between themselves and they wont have to fight for it

Lets say that the "alpha" dog gets old, the "beta" would like to step in to get that position, but the alpha feels is still not time, you would have some nasty fights untill one of them give up and you cant know how long that would last

They dont  fight for lack of hierarchy because they already know to respect eachother and what they own, they dont have to follow "sub-rules" set by other members, they know to respect personal space and no stealing food, toys, etc from others

With the eating in the street example, with my dogs is different, they dont care who is eating what, the first to find it eats it (they dont eat poop), the other dogs dont care, they know he was lucky this time and maybe next time they will be the lucky ones, just like finding money on the street, how sad it is to find $20 in the street and that your father asks you to give them to him? []

In my experience the top dogs in a stable household spend so much time smoothly transitioning roles before any permanent change has to be made - that the second in command typically steps in seamlessly to their new role. I see squabbles most often associated with dogs with behaviors that are destabilizing in themselves - those status seeking individuals that lack confidence. Sometimes people think these dogs ARE the top dogs because they spend a lot of time punishing other dogs in the household. Most mature, confident dogs will give these dogs a pass.

It's like if you took your place in an elevator and there were a guy facing the back of the elevator, making loud critical comments about hairstyles and clothing choices. Trying to correct the guy or put him in his place would start way more trouble than it would be worth. So we either ignore him or treat him to the classic "frozen smile" of disapproval.

Dogs have no sense that the rude, nerdy dog is more or less permanent than they are in a pack, so it's like they are always in the elevator hoping the guy will get off on the next floor. The lower ranking dogs don't set the rules and are perfectly happy that way, so they only defend their own rights when needed. On the other hand, the nerdy dog doesn't respect space or rights, being naturally opportunistic. This is a necessary characteristic to have in wild canid packs because you don't want too much stability - something needs to operate within a healthy family group to drive genetic variety. There's no need for this in human households, though!

Thats funny i actually think that not having a hierarchy between themselves is what makes them not having fights, they dont have to be proving their status over an over, maybe in a household with 2 dominant dogs thats exactly what causes the fights and you have 2 dogs fighting for a higer status for years, dont let them to have a status between themselves and they wont have to fight for it

Lets say that the "alpha" dog gets old, the "beta" would like to step in to get that position, but the alpha feels is still not time, you would have some nasty fights untill one of them give up and you cant know how long that would last

They dont fight for lack of hierarchy because they already know to respect eachother and what they own, they dont have to follow "sub-rules" set by other members, they know to respect personal space and no stealing food, toys, etc from others 

 
A very astute observation espence.  A friend of mine that has PHs had something very similar happen-in the PH pack one mustn't show weakness.  Especially not when there are 4or 5 others ready to become alpha bitch. 
In this particular case the alpha bitch stumbled when going down a 3 stair landing off the deck.  The second she stumbled she had 2 other bitches attack her.  All three survived, and even though my friend was bitten a dozen times during the intervention, she also recovered.
 
But most dogs are not anywhere near as dominant and clever as PHs are.  Most dogs don't have that "wildness" that they do and pack leadership isn't as important.

They dont fight for lack of hierarchy because they already know to respect eachother and what they own, they dont have to follow "sub-rules" set by other members, they know to respect personal space and no stealing food, toys, etc from others

With the eating in the street example, with my dogs is different, they dont care who is eating what, the first to find it eats it (they dont eat poop), the other dogs dont care, they know he was lucky this time and maybe next time they will be the lucky ones, just like finding money on the street, how sad it is to find $20 in the street and that your father asks you to give them to him?

 
I  think you are forgetting about the rule of possession.  There is the "doggy law of possession" that trumps dominance-- even a very submissive dog is allowed to own things he has in his possession. If your submissive dog actually has a bone in his mouth, he is unlikely to volunteer to give it to a dominant dog. Ownership for submissive dogs usually only extends to being in his actual mouth. Ownership for more dominant dogs extends further-- my alpha bitch can declare that a bone lying across the room from her is HERS and none of the other dogs will even look at it.
So in my example of the eating the found deer poop, because the puppy who found it is very submissive, only things actually in his mouth are his. The poop still lying on the ground is not. If it were a cookie he had found, he would have picked it up and it would have been his, and not even the alpha bitch would have expected him to ceed it to her.
The rule of possession really gets people into trouble because they expect their dog to let them take bones and food out of his mouth. Only a really rude dog would ever try to do that, and even a very submissive dog would feel entitled to respond with violence against someone trying to take stuff out of his mouth.
So your dogs not trying to fight over food or toys or sleeping spots they have in possession means nothing except that your dogs are well-socialized, non-rude dogs.
To check for dominance, you watch to see what happens with things that are not-in-possession, and watch to see which dogs are given "first dibs" on these items by other dogs.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

So your dogs not trying to fight over food or toys or sleeping spots they have in possession means nothing except that your dogs are well-socialized, non-rude dogs.

 
Thats exactly what it is [], how did i do it? well we already know that []

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I  think you are forgetting about the rule of possession.  There is the "doggy law of possession" that trumps dominance-- even a very submissive dog is allowed to own things he has in his possession. If your submissive dog actually has a bone in his mouth, he is unlikely to volunteer to give it to a dominant dog. Ownership for submissive dogs usually only extends to being in his actual mouth. Ownership for more dominant dogs extends further-- my alpha bitch can declare that a bone lying across the room from her is HERS and none of the other dogs will even look at it.
So in my example of the eating the found deer poop, because the puppy who found it is very submissive, only things actually in his mouth are his. The poop still lying on the ground is not. If it were a cookie he had found, he would have picked it up and it would have been his, and not even the alpha bitch would have expected him to ceed it to her.
The rule of possession really gets people into trouble because they expect their dog to let them take bones and food out of his mouth. Only a really rude dog would ever try to do that, and even a very submissive dog would feel entitled to respond with violence against someone trying to take stuff out of his mouth.
So your dogs not trying to fight over food or toys or sleeping spots they have in possession means nothing except that your dogs are well-socialized, non-rude dogs.
To check for dominance, you watch to see what happens with things that are not-in-possession, and watch to see which dogs are given "first dibs" on these items by other dogs.

This is interesting, because the fights we have in our pack usually break out because a dog is trying to push the limits of the possession rule. Pyry, our top dog, will try to intimidate Jill, our beta dog, away from a tasty bone if he's already done with his. This puts Jill in an awful position because she knows if he wants to fight for it, it won't go well for her, but at the same time, she's not giving up the bone. She'll growl and bare her teeth as he comes towards her growling at her. Technically we should be close at hand when they're eating their favourite things, but sometimes we've gone inside, or the dogs have taken their bones to the far flung reaches of the backyard. Jill has learnt to pick up her bone and run if Pyry comes towards her strutting his alpha stuff.

What's interesting is that he usually only goes for Jill's food, and he'll only do it, like, once every couple of months or so. Penny eats hers at light speed so no one can steal it, but Pyry doesn't usually bother her, anyway. I think when he goes for Jill's food, it's as much him pushing the beta around to let her know she's below him than anything else.