How do you know the pack order?

It's been a while since I've lived with two dogs, but usually what I did was the first one to settle down would get attention first, then the other one would immitate,adn that resulted in them settling down faster every time, regardless of pack order. Right now I have a dog and a cat, and while they are different species, they are both attention hogs, the have both figured out that the one NOT pestering me will get attention first, so now when I walk into the house the cat sits on the breakfast table and the dog sits right next to him, the interesting part is when only one of them is around, it does take them longer to settle, lack of competition I guess.

Any minute now someone will post here that there is only one pack order you should accept, and that is you be #1 and the dogs are ALL #2. I've always been of the idea that as long as the dogs respect each other and there are no fights they can rank themselves however they see fit. The thinking behind that is "why try and fix something that isn't broken?", if it works for them, it works for me.

Thanks for the reply eley.  I also used a similar method of "who ever sits first" gets the first greeting when I had just the 2 Shih Tzus and was working on their "four on the floor".  However, with 4 dogs (I also have 2 cats, but they have their own ways), they seem to feed off of one another's excitement even more so, and none of them settle unless you walk in and do not speak to any of them until they slink off thinking that I am uninterested.  That method works pretty well, but it's really hard to do - because I truly do love the "meet and greet" time!

I agree that I need to remain #1, the Pack Leader; and I continue to hold that status through training and NILIF with all of them.  I am more concerned about the order of their pack after me.  Even though I am alpha and when I speak, they do respond, they still  have their own pecking order as well, right?  I don't want to inadvertently create a rank issue among them.

Even though I am alpha and when I speak, they do respond, they still have their own pecking order as well, right? I don't want to inadvertently create a rank issue among them.

I actually don't ascribe to the "treating them by pack rank" theory. As far as I'm concerned, I'm the leader, and they're all just a bunch of "also rans". Today I might set the lowest dog's food down first... tomorrow I might give the two beta dogs their foods first. I ignore the dogs as I come in the door, then give pets for those who sit and act nicely for it. This seems to work out fine for us - and I have five dogs. That's just the way I do things though! Pack order can be so fluid and non-human that IMO it sometimes can be hard to figure out who is alpha, anyway.

ORIGINAL: dogslyfe

I actually don't ascribe to the "treating them by pack rank" theory. As far as I'm concerned, I'm the leader, and they're all just a bunch of "also rans". Today I might set the lowest dog's food down first... tomorrow I might give the two beta dogs their foods first. I ignore the dogs as I come in the door, then give pets for those who sit and act nicely for it. This seems to work out fine for us - and I have five dogs. That's just the way I do things though! Pack order can be so fluid and non-human that IMO it sometimes can be hard to figure out who is alpha, anyway.

 
Good advice and a ditto from me. []

ORIGINAL: dogslyfe
As far as I'm concerned, I'm the leader, and they're all just a bunch of "also rans". Today I might set the lowest dog's food down first... tomorrow I might give the two beta dogs their foods first. I ignore the dogs as I come in the door, then give pets for those who sit and act nicely for it. This seems to work out fine for us - and I have five dogs. That's just the way I do things though! Pack order can be so fluid and non-human that IMO it sometimes can be hard to figure out who is alpha, anyway.

Ahh! That's what I was wondering; how other multi-dog households do things.
If you have 5 dogs and you don't have any grumbling among them, then apparently you do a good job as the leader[] 
I'm hoping that I am too, since so far, they all follow me around the house and will literally snap their head to look at me when I call someone's name (It has actually improved MY dogs' recall since the competition arrived - it's only been 3 days though)

So,  How do you respond if you are petting Dog #2 and Dog #1 comes over to get in between you.  Do you just let Dog #2 back off (as I'm told that a lower rank dog typically will), or do you tell Dog #1 to wait their turn and continue as you were? Or just pet them both?

I do so much reading about dog behavior, that it gets all intertwined sometimes, and I was concerned that if I don't do things right with this crew, a rank issue may come about when I'm NOT there.  (for example, when they are all outside, or if DH or mother in-law is home alone with them) 

I'm probably just over thinking the whole thing.  I was SO nervous when I first found out that they were coming.  Maybe I just haven't accepted that 4 adult dogs are easier to control than it sounded[] - at least this particular 4!

Much thanks for the responses!

Ahh! That's what I was wondering; how other multi-dog households do things.
If you have 5 dogs and you don't have any grumbling among them, then apparently you do a good job as the leader

When I first went from two to three dogs things WERE NOT that harmonious. I had a lot to learn about being a leader. That doesn't mean that there are never problems now - with even the best of leaders I think issues sometimes arise because I think that both animals and humans have the ability to make choices, and have thoughts and feelings, and nevermind biological process and learned behaviors. But, nowadays problems are rare, and dealt with quickly, fairly, and consistently.

So, How do you respond if you are petting Dog #2 and Dog #1 comes over to get in between you. Do you just let Dog #2 back off (as I'm told that a lower rank dog typically will), or do you tell Dog #1 to wait their turn and continue as you were? Or just pet them both?

Well, I would body block and subsequently ignore the interloper. When I'm finished with what I'm doing, I then ask the interloper to perform an action (such as sit) and then give them attention if I so choose. Sometimes if they're being obnoxious, no attention at all. Kinda depends on the dog, and on the situation. Typically my dogs wait their turns though.

I do so much reading about dog behavior, that it gets all intertwined sometimes, and I was concerned that if I don't do things right with this crew, a rank issue may come about when I'm NOT there. (for example, when they are all outside, or if DH or mother in-law is home alone with them)

It could. It could very well pop up, but then again it very well might not. TBH, if you're concerned I would request that MIL isn't alone with all four dogs loose until you feel more confident. When I first started adding dogs things went to heck in a handbasket - but since my dogs have become rather ho-hum about adding more dogs.

I'm probably just over thinking the whole thing. I was SO nervous when I first found out that they were coming. Maybe I just haven't accepted that 4 adult dogs are easier to control than it sounded - at least this particular 4!

lol When it comes to my pack I *try* to think like a dog - taking each moment as it comes, and dealing with it then. Yep, don't borrow trouble where there isn't any. Sometimes dogs can make such smooth and beautiful transitions. It may be that one of your dogs (likely the female lab) has come in and quietly taken control, and that's fine - that will probably make all of the dogs more comfortable.

I think if you institute some sort of NILIF program the dogs realize they get stuff because of working for you, instead of getting stuff because they are entitled to get it due to pack rank or for being rude and pushy. So if you're just handing out treats for no reason  the dominant dog might get upset about getting his treat last, but if you're handing out treats to dogs who sit, it's pretty clear to the dogs why the dominant dog got his treat last-- because he was slow in sitting.
 

Heh, mudpuppy I think you need to send that memo to Conrad! He gets quite miffed if I'm giving rewards and Marlowe has earned one and he hasn't. At one point, he herded Marlowe right out of the room to get rid of him, then came back to continue where we'd left off. So now I only ask for behaviors that I know they're both aces at, and they'll both be rewarded for. If there's a chance that what I'm asking for is something Marlowe knows and Conrad doesn't really know as well, I save that one for when just Marlowe's around.

ORIGINAL: tzumommy

Ahh! That's what I was wondering; how other multi-dog households do things.
If you have 5 dogs and you don't have any grumbling among them, then apparently you do a good job as the leader[] 

 
I was discussing a similar topic about hierarchy in dogs and how that can bring aggression

[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=239020&mpage=4&key]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=239020&mpage=4&key[/link]=

How do i know the pack order?, that is the easiest thing ever, i am #1 and the whole rest is #2, there is not #3 or #4

Conrad sounds like quite a character! I never ask for behaviors dogs aren't really good at in a group setting. One-on-one for real training. But the group competition for the first treat can really speed up those sits and recalls. And if Conrad were mine, and had herded Marlowe out of the room, I'd follow Marlowe, shut the door on Conrad, and have a little training session with Marlowe. Conrad learns pushy gets him nothing good.

and espencer, that's completely incorrect. You may be #1, and you may fondly believe all of your dogs are all #2s, but they know that's not true. Just because you don't see any overt fighting or posturing doesn't mean they are all equal in status, it just means you aren't paying attention to their body language.

Yeah, I think after that Conrad got put on the other side of the baby gate to watch for a little while. And then we laughed pretty heartily. He's not aggressive or anything about it, he'll just be like, "Marlowe, I'm sorry, no one seems to have told you but you need to go over here now. Let me show you."

My feeling is that if the dogs aren't arguing, no need to worry about it, really. The times when I think it's typical to have scraps due to ignoring the natural pack order is when the top dog is feeling insecure already. If I were you, I'd be watching the dogs closely to make sure no one is getting uppity about how you're handling things. If one dog starts having a go at another all the time, it's safe to assume that one has decided it's higher up in the pack order and the one it's picking on is immediately under it. You can help settle that down by supporting the insecure one, or, if you're game and are going to be around a lot to supervise, you can demote the insecure one and step in every time there's aggression.

Essentially, though, I don't think there's any need to stick to a strict pack order if there's no aggression anyway. We have a pack of three at the moment. We feed the bottom pack member first sometimes and the top at others and the middle at others. If I'm patting the bottom member and the top dog comes and tries to push in, I put him aside because I see it as demanding of me rather than demanding of the bottom dog. I know he doesn't care about the bottom dog and she'd move if he gave her a look, but he doesn't, so I consider it being pushy towards me. He gets ignored until I'm done. As for greetings, I tend to greet my dog first because she's mine, even though she's at the bottom. The other dogs seem to know that and have never got silly about it. Often our top dog isn't concerned with greetings and is happy to wait until the other dogs are done and he has our full attention. In cases where all the dogs are there to greet us, I normally crouch and pat them all at once. To minimise pushyness, though, I think it's reasonable to greet the top dog first. When my dog was at the top, she used to tell the bottom dog to sit in the garden under the bush until she was finished with greetings. The bottom dog held that sit-stay a lot better than she ever did when we asked the same thing of her. We never interfered with it.

ORIGINAL: dogslyfe

Even though I am alpha and when I speak, they do respond, they still have their own pecking order as well, right? I don't want to inadvertently create a rank issue among them.

I actually don't ascribe to the "treating them by pack rank" theory. As far as I'm concerned, I'm the leader, and they're all just a bunch of "also rans". Today I might set the lowest dog's food down first... tomorrow I might give the two beta dogs their foods first. I ignore the dogs as I come in the door, then give pets for those who sit and act nicely for it. This seems to work out fine for us - and I have five dogs. That's just the way I do things though! Pack order can be so fluid and non-human that IMO it sometimes can be hard to figure out who is alpha, anyway.

I think this is a great way to handle things, especially if you have difficulty knowing which are the higher ranking dogs in your pack.  If you check the archives, I think I posted a method for determining the "true dominant" dog in a household.  Maybe someone can find it and repost.