How do you know the pack order?

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

and espencer, that's completely incorrect. You may be #1, and you may fondly believe all of your dogs are all #2s, but they know that's not true. Just because you don't see any overt fighting or posturing doesn't mean they are all equal in status, it just means you aren't paying attention to their body language.

Well i guess that the only way to be correct in your statement is by coming to my house and point out to me what i am supposely not seeing, maybe, only maybe i don't see any over fighting or posturing  because in reality there is not any at all, dont you think? i think i know my dogs more than you []
 
Is like me telling you that maybe you think your dogs obey you but they know is not true, that you are living in a lie, oh wait, i have never seen your dogs before, thats right, i dont have any prove of what i am saying,  how ignorant i am by saying that []

I mix it up quiet a bit, I don't favor any of my dogs in any way, and I own 5, also.
I mix up handing out treats, affection, and I also make no big deal of coming home, I leave like there is nothing going on, and I come home in the same fashion.
 
I know who is keeping an eye on the whole pack when I am not looking, I just make sure that he doesn't push his weight around too much.
 
I break up any rough housing inside, the dogs have to respect the house.
 
Outside it's a different story, when things get a little too rough, I then break up the romping session.....it's all pretty simple.

In my "pack" of two dogs and a cat, I am the leader.  The dogs know this, the cat couldn't care less.  I eat, I feed the cat and then the dogs eat.  Inside the house Gaia runs things between her and Xerxes.  Outside Xerxes is faster, stronger, quicker, and has better sight; so in Gaia's eyes, he should lead. 

Inside if Xerxes wants to play he always comes from a downward position and tries to engage Gaia, unless she's lying down.  Then he just paws at her and whines like a little puppy.  Outside he always comes down on her, specifically he'll come down on her neck, he'll jump up come down on her shoulders.  He holds his tail and head higher, he won't let her take him down her won't let her get away with much.  Inside, if he has something she wants-she takes it.  He's not a resource guarder so there's no problem there.  If there are high-value items, they are seperated.  Outside if he's got something...she can try to take it away from him, he may or may not let her.

So the pack order is a changeable, situational order.  It's dynamic and fluid and it's all about survival. 

I've come to believe strongly in the situational pack order. I'm at the top all the time, but mostly because I'm a weird undoglike busybody who controls everything and enforces my positiion almost all the time. I am She Who Says No. That's not a position that fits into the doggy paradigm but they understand it with no problem, because I'm also She Who Has All the Good Stuff.

Below me, my household is so complex that it would make your head spin. I have dogs who seem classically "alpha" (Maggie and Ben), but dogs who seem to get their way no matter what, though you often see them using appeasing gestures and what we think of as submissive behaviors (Tully and Zhi).

Lu never seems to interact with anybody, but in her own way, she is She Who Says No, but unlike me she is She Who Doesn't Give a Darn. Doug is near the bottom and a troublemaker, while Cord is near the bottom and seems oblivious.

I have a feeling Rocky the older puppy will fit in with Cord, as he hero worships him right now. On the other hand, Ted hero worships Ben and has a lot of his personality traits, so I suspect he'll rise up towards the top.

Food and whether the dogs are inside or outside, or working or not, all change things up constantly. Zhi is the undisputed queen of snuggling and greeting, but she's not allowed to defend me or get grumbly. I don't ever greet the dogs when I arrive - it's one of those pleasures that just isn't worth the maintanence. Ben talks to me and I talk back - it's irrisistable. [] But that's it.

I'm interested in the interaction intellectually, but I don't worry about it. Fights are prevented by the fact that I will exercise my Power to Say No if squabbles get out of hand, and they know it.

only maybe i don't see any over fighting or posturing because in reality there is not any at all, dont you think?

 
no, you only see overt fighting and posturing if the pack structure hasn't been settled, i.e. someones trying to climb rank. In a settled pack the dominance/submissive gestures are very subtle and difficult for us language-focused humans to pick up on-- but the dogs know. I spend a lot of time watching dogs interact and I think am better than average at picking up these signals. Post some video of your dogs and we can comment.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

and espencer, that's completely incorrect. You may be #1, and you may fondly believe all of your dogs are all #2s, but they know that's not true. Just because you don't see any overt fighting or posturing doesn't mean they are all equal in status, it just means you aren't paying attention to their body language.

Well i guess that the only way to be correct in your statement is by coming to my house and point out to me what i am supposely not seeing, maybe, only maybe i don't see any over fighting or posturing  because in reality there is not any at all, dont you think? i think i know my dogs more than you []

Is like me telling you that maybe you think your dogs obey you but they know is not true, that you are living in a lie, oh wait, i have never seen your dogs before, thats right, i dont have any prove of what i am saying,  how ignorant i am by saying that []

 
No, there IS posturing etc. going on but you just aren't seeing it.  For there not to be any would be like living in a houseful of silent humans - completely unnatural and unlikely. 
 
It's not that you're missing it because you are in some way deficient or unknowledgeable, it's more probably because your "pack" is settled and there is no need for overt posturing etc. - nobody is trying to make a point.  But that does not mean that some  posturing is not taking place. The body language is very very subtle and fluid, and it doesn't happen all the time.... and if you have a balanced and relaxed pack, it's hard to spot when it's going on or what's being "said" when it is.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

No, there IS posturing etc. going on but you just aren't seeing it.  For there not to be any would be like living in a houseful of silent humans - completely unnatural and unlikely. 

It's not that you're missing it because you are in some way deficient or unknowledgeable, it's more probably because your "pack" is settled and there is no need for overt posturing etc. - nobody is trying to make a point.  But that does not mean that some  posturing is not taking place. The body language is very very subtle and fluid, and it doesn't happen all the time.... and if you have a balanced and relaxed pack, it's hard to spot when it's going on or what's being "said" when it is.

 
Oh they have postures indeed, they are not statues [] , since i am the one that lives with them i think i have more resources than to prove what i am saying [], do you have a way to prove that my specific pack is not that way? is not natural that dogs wear leashes, is not natural that dogs eat from a bowl, should those things should not exist? my pack has still a hierarchy with only 2 positions, so is still as natural as any other, is just different rules, if a family from Japan ask you to take the shoes off before getting into their house are they being unatural for having different rules than you? If a guy has a wife with a job is that guy not human in the eyes of a guy that believes the woman should stay at home to take care of the kids? they are still humans, just different rules
 

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

No, there IS posturing etc. going on but you just aren't seeing it.  For there not to be any would be like living in a houseful of silent humans - completely unnatural and unlikely. 

It's not that you're missing it because you are in some way deficient or unknowledgeable, it's more probably because your "pack" is settled and there is no need for overt posturing etc. - nobody is trying to make a point.  But that does not mean that some  posturing is not taking place. The body language is very very subtle and fluid, and it doesn't happen all the time.... and if you have a balanced and relaxed pack, it's hard to spot when it's going on or what's being "said" when it is.

Oh they have postures indeed, they are not statues [] , since i am the one that lives with them i think i have more resources than to prove what i am saying [], do you have a way to prove that my specific pack is not that way? is not natural that dogs wear leashes, is not natural that dogs eat from a bowl, should those things should not exist? my pack has still a hierarchy with only 2 positions, so is still as natural as any other, is just different rules, if a family from Japan ask you to take the shoes off before getting into their house are they being unatural for having different rules than you? If a guy has a wife with a job is that guy not human in the eyes of a guy that believes the woman should stay at home to take care of the kids? they are still humans, just different rules

 
I thought you only had the one dog, Camilla?  Is there a second or third dog as well?

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

No, there IS posturing etc. going on but you just aren't seeing it.  For there not to be any would be like living in a houseful of silent humans - completely unnatural and unlikely. 

It's not that you're missing it because you are in some way deficient or unknowledgeable, it's more probably because your "pack" is settled and there is no need for overt posturing etc. - nobody is trying to make a point.  But that does not mean that some  posturing is not taking place. The body language is very very subtle and fluid, and it doesn't happen all the time.... and if you have a balanced and relaxed pack, it's hard to spot when it's going on or what's being "said" when it is.

Oh they have postures indeed, they are not statues [] , since i am the one that lives with them i think i have more resources than to prove what i am saying [], do you have a way to prove that my specific pack is not that way? is not natural that dogs wear leashes, is not natural that dogs eat from a bowl, should those things should not exist? my pack has still a hierarchy with only 2 positions, so is still as natural as any other, is just different rules, if a family from Japan ask you to take the shoes off before getting into their house are they being unatural for having different rules than you? If a guy has a wife with a job is that guy not human in the eyes of a guy that believes the woman should stay at home to take care of the kids? they are still humans, just different rules

Quite frankly, Chuffy's post is right on the money.  To assume otherwise would imply that dogs, social and hierarchical beings that they are, simply stop communicating to one another once they settle on a "permanent" rank order (in fact, there's nothing permanent about it - rank sometimes changes with age, infirmity, addition of another dog to the pack, etc.).  In fact, that order may be settled for the time being, but they still question each other about it.  For example, you might not notice a subtle and infinitesmal "freeze" glance, but another dog will, and will then walk right by the couch that they might have jumped up on, had the boss dog not signalled that he didn't want to share that space right now...

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I thought you only had the one dog, Camilla?  Is there a second or third dog as well?

Yes sir, i often dogsit my friend dogs and when i mean often i mean reaaaaally often and viceversa, they are a lab and another schnauzer, they spend as much time in my house than in his, we are neighbors, i posted pics of them too before, you can say we share the pack (but here between us i take care of them better that he does actually [])

Quite frankly, Chuffy's post is right on the money.  To assume otherwise would imply that dogs, social and hierarchical beings that they are, simply stop communicating to one another once they settle on a "permanent" rank order (in fact, there's nothing permanent about it - rank sometimes changes with age, infirmity, addition of another dog to the pack, etc.).  In fact, that order may be settled for the time being, but they still question each other about it.  For example, you might not notice a subtle and infinitesmal "freeze" glance, but another dog will, and will then walk right by the couch that they might have jumped up on, had the boss dog not signalled that he didn't want to share that space right now...

And what i answered before to Chuffy is the same answer for you []

espencer, I'm confused.  On other threads I'm sure you've said that you hold with the view that with dogs there is no "equality" or "democracy" if you like, so if an owner tries to be friends and equals with their dog the dog will step up to the role of "leader".  Are you now saying this doesn't apply amongst subordinates?  That once the leader has been sorted out, everyone else is on equal footing? 

That does not fit in with what I have seen of dogs at all.... always, always, there is a structure.  It is fluid and often changing, although in a settled pack there is not usually any overt posturing to get the message across..... I think Xerxes gave a good example where one of the dogs takes the "higher" position between the two when inside and the other when outside. 

In my experience, provided you secure yourself as the benevolent leader/protector/controller of resources/source of all good things, the dogs can (usually) be left to sort out their own structure and there is no need for us to try to define, enforce or change it.  But that doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge that there is structure there - I simply choose not to interfere in it because I'm human, I'm not infallible and it's more likely I'll confuse the issue than anything else.  Let the dog weigh up his own kind, he is much more adept at it than we are.
 
ETA to espencer - I don't see how different human rules and cultures in japan about taking off footwear is relevant - humans are different everywhere but a dog is a dog is a dog.  Whatever you perceive the rules to be in your house, your dog is still the same species as my dog, even if yours is a malamute and mine is a chihuahua.  I don't believe dogs anywhere, in any household, are on equal footing with one another and no, I don't go round and inspect this or that persons house or pack to enforce that opinion. 

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

espencer, I'm confused.  On other threads I'm sure you've said that you hold with the view that with dogs there is no "equality" or "democracy" if you like, so if an owner tries to be friends and equals with their dog the dog will step up to the role of "leader".  Are you now saying this doesn't apply amongst subordinates?  That once the leader has been sorted out, everyone else is on equal footing?

You would have to show me the quote of what i said because that seems confusing for me too, you maybe misunderstood something but i am not able to tell without seeing what i said before

That does not fit in with what I have seen of dogs at all.... always, always, there is a structure.  It is fluid and often changing, although in a settled pack there is not usually any overt posturing to get the message across..... I think Xerxes gave a good example where one of the dogs takes the "higher" position between the two when inside and the other when outside. 

In my experience, provided you secure yourself as the benevolent leader/protector/controller of resources/source of all good things, the dogs can (usually) be left to sort out their own structure and there is no need for us to try to define, enforce or change it.  But that doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge that there is structure there - I simply choose not to interfere in it because I'm human, I'm not infallible and it's more likely I'll confuse the issue than anything else.  Let the dog weigh up his own kind, he is much more adept at it than we are.

Well like i said already more than once, there is still an stucture, now i have to ask you, have you tried to do it that way? you number #1 and rest #2 only? if not how do you know if is not possible? you can write 5 pages of why do you think is not possible but have you tried it? i talk for personal experience and that tells me it is possible

I believe that not having a leader is unnatural for dogs, they need someone to follow; just like a pack can have 2 alphas, also a pack can have all of them betas with only one alpha, a pack with 2 alphas does not have one trying to be more alpha than the other, there is not alpha.1 and alpha.2 because that makes alpha.2 into a beta actually and the rest are the followers. Can you tell a pack with 2 alphas "no, i am sorry, your pack needs to have only one #1, one #2 and one #3 and if not then you are unnatural" ? or whatever the combinations you want it to be?, you well know there is packs with 2 alphas

They still have a structure buy every pack can have a different one, like we say in my town "there is no worse blind person than the one who does not want to see"

I'm talking about several posts where you have stressed the importance of being pack leader, not a specific comment.  To look at it another way, do you really think that a pack of dogs see themselves as equal below a human leader or have I misunderstood you completely?

In my house, I am #1 and I treat the dogs as #2 and it seems to work.  But that doesn't mean that subordinates do not have rank and structure amongst themselves - it's just largely irrelevant most of the time.
 
Edited because it was grammatically incorrect and it didnt say what I wanted it to!

Aw, geeze!  Am I supposed to be following some sort of rules I didn't know about?
 
When I come home, if the dogs are loose in the house, I greet the calmest first.  If not, whoever is QUIET gets let out of the crate for outside first.  When it's time for a meal, again, whoever is quiet gets the first bowl.  Might be Thor, might be Theo, but it's usually Shadow since he's smart enough to make that connection.  And the two who eat upstairs always get theirs last just because they are upstairs and I'm downstairs when I serve it up.  When I'm handing out treats?  Whoever's butt hits the floor first gets the first treat.  But, if the butt leaves the floor, my hand closes.  And if someone ELSE puts their nose in the way, they miss a turn.  I don't care who it is.  We sit and stay for treats or we don't get any.  And we don't try to snatch someone ELSES treat from my hand.  Manners are important.
 
I'm number 1, and frankly, I don't worry about who is number two or three or four or........it changes too much to keep track of.  I don't "support the alpha" by feeding or anything else first.  I feed and everything else based on behavior.  And, the two who sleep upstairs don't do so because of any elevated status in the pack....the 4 boys who sleep in their crates, with the exception of Theo who still likes to eat stuff like pillows, blankets, etc....CHOOSE to sleep in their unlocked crates.  I'd have no problem, other than trying to get out of bed without stepping on someone, with having them ALL upstairs at nite.  It's happened a few times and there isn't any fussing.....my only issue is with them taking turns on the bed and the all nite rotation that happens on my WATER bed.....some mornings I wake up seasick!
 
So, if I'm screwing up my pack, sure hope someone will enlighten me......

Glenda, if you're screwing up your pack, I must be screwing mine up too. When Millie was still here, it was very clear she was top dog. That didn't mean she got her treats first all the time though. If Max's butt hit the floor first, he got his cookie first. If they each hit the floor at the same time, they'd get their treats at the same time, one from each hand. If she did it first, even though she didn't usually, then she did get hers first. Now since Max has had more experience and knows things better, he usually gets his before Georgie. If by some odd chance she acts first, then she does get hers first. If Max is called to come, she will usually come running after him. She doesn't really know this one on her own yet, but that's ok, following him will help her get it. Who is alpha between the two of them isn't as clear as it was between Max and Millie either anyway.