Neuter/spay - Why? Why not?

kpwlee

Honestly a responsible owner can have their dog s/n'd and have one less thing to worry about. 

I completely agree with that, Karen...as I sit here with my neutered dog LOL.  I think neutering is a good option - maybe the best option - for most dogs....I just want to wear my rose coloured specs and say that it's a decision I'd like to be made with education and facts.  

kpwlee

Any of you that think you are going to educate these numskulls to not breed their dog or to be 'better' owners so their dogs don't make more dogs are flat out clueless.  Sorry to be so blunt but the notion that you are going to educate these idiots is laughable to me

 completely agree.

I never have and never will support mandatory s/n but I will always say for joe public an altered dog is the best option.  A local study was done showing that less than 10% of people that walked out of shelters with an intact dog and who promised to get the dog s/n'd actually did get the dog s/n'd.

If not mandatory s/n than how else do we get people to do it since we know education does not work?

Benedict

The only difference between an "average" home and a "show" home (as an example of a home where the dogs must remain intact) is that the show home chose to educate him/her/themselves on the measures to take to prevent oops litters. 

This statement nearly makes my point from a different tack. In a show/breeder's home, I would expect the dogs, at least the breeding pair, to be intact. And the owners quite well educated and competent at handling and segregating intact dogs.

And most people adopting from a shelter or even buying from a breeder aren't breeding and some are showing, some are not. Some just want a purebred, not to show, but to depend on the characteristics of a purebred. As for those adopting from shelters and rescues, they should not be breeding. And are average. What Kwlpee is trying to say is "welcome to the United States of America." Where dogs run loose, where many people do not keep their dogs in kennels. Where training often stops at "sit" and "downdangit." Outside of those conditions, the dogs live a fairly good life with some food and water available. Some get out, some do not. Some people have more than one dog. And more than one person in the family working. And not close enough to go home at lunch at let them out for potty breaks.

I realize now that I am a bad and irresponsible owner because I had Shadow neutered to prevent future litters and I can't keep him in the kennel but in the backyard where there is a slight risk that he might one day get out of the yard, though he has yet to do so and he is now over 5 years old. That is, I had Shadow neutered because it was easier than some of the stringent requirements of maintaining an intact pet. That, instead of getting run over by a car or getting cancer, he might suffer some malady brought on by no more testosterone in the bloodstream. I didn't neuter to thwart aggression and the medical concerns were secondary. I neutered to avoid future litters. And I can't keep him in a kennel. Not without sedation.

I am average. I am JQP. At least I was when I got Shadow. The next dog I get will be from a shelter and will be spayed/neutered, either when I adopt or shortly after as a condition of adoption.

I agree that some people can successfully keep intact pets for whatever reason, especially if the dog is the right temperment, i.e., not an escape artist.

My intact dog is an escape artist. Leashes and double latched crates have pretty well solved that problem. My spayed dog is a worse escape artist. Being altered has nothing to do with escaping. It may end in an undesired litter, but it certainly won't, here. If my bitch were to escape, and be bred, I'd spay  her on the spot. It would be because I wasn't able to handle an intact bitch, and she'd need to be spayed, for the greater good (and her safety!). The neuter campaign hasn't worked, here. Hundreds of puppies and kittens are euthanized in my county, every year. My friend adopted a puppy from a neighboring county. He was due to be gassed the next day. "Georgia Black Dogs" don't stand a chance.... Neither do Pits/ Pit mixes. It's really very sad.

We are around uncontained, uncontrolled, intact dogs on a regular basis. There was one in my front yard, the other morning. This afternoon, when I walked out of work, one was sitting by the front door. Ena is marking up a storm! 

*shrugs* I'm ok with that. We've been through 2 1/2 seasons, so far, without any great escapes or impregnations. It's really not as hard as it sounds.... A leash, and some suprivision.... That's it. 

Nobody here is making an uninformed decision, though. If you didn't know that altering was a big decision, you wouldn't be posting in this thread. 

jennie_c_d

Hundreds of puppies and kittens are euthanized in my county, every year. My friend adopted a puppy from a neighboring county.

Neutering can work but it has to happen before the dog breeds. After breeding, it can prevent future litters. For every person here that is maintaining an intact pet, there is another person out there with an intact pet breeding, when they shouldn't, and those litters will wind up in shelters, in spite of the fact that the "breeders" were quite good at keeping intact pets and only allowed the mating at the chosen time. That is, if a number of adopted and rescued dogs are neutered and spayed and aren't capable of having litters, where do all these hundreds of pups come from? They come from intact dogs.

pudel

 And you think education will stop this?  It hasn't yet, why should it start now?

Precisely the same could be said for neutering

However I think education IS working better than just telling everyone to neuter - that's just my opinion.

pudel

Of course the shelters are not full of unwanted puppies.  Puppies are what people want, which creates a demand.  People breed to satisfy a demand.  Person buys the puppy, or gets puppy from neighbor's "oops" litter, no questions asked, and dumps it when it's no longer a puppy. You think people need you to educate them that puppies grow up into adult dogs as if they don't already know?   They do know and it doesn't stop anyone from buying them.

No - but I do think  people need educating on what having a dog entails and why it should not be done on impulse. 

pudel

What we need is education about how dogs are for 15 years and how to train them to be good companions for life,

Again, you think people need to be educated that dogs live for 15 years?   And training - people have to be somewhat responsible to begin with to seek out and pay for training.  Are you planning on giving out free training classes every day for every puppy that gets sold in your area?  

I don't think this was directed at me, but you seem to be unaware of the stupidity some people are capable of.  Sadly, Yes I do think some people need REMINDING that dogs can live 15 years or more.  I don't think free training classes are feasible, but I think the puppy source should CERTAINLY give plentiful free training advice and urge them to get to a class for one on one instruction.

Let's say we have another Buzz Lightyear craze this Christmas.  If Buzz suddenly got popular again, you wouldn't be able to discourage retailers from stocking and selling them - as long as people want them, someone will sell them and make money out of it.  Six months later, Buzz's arm may have come off and he may be in a box in the bottom of the wardrobe.  If we wanted to reduce the numbers of Buzzes sold, we have to discourage people from wanting them in the first place.

It's the same with pets IMO - if you want to control the population, it is worthless targeting the source, the producers.  It's the consumers who should be the target.  Discourage people from dog ownership, and less puppies will be produced because people will be more careful about it.

Where I used to live, EVERYONE had a cat.  Some had indoor/outdoor cats that are neutered and some just have indoor cats that might be neutered or might not.  People were careful about it because no one wanted kittens - they were too hard to get rid of.  When I wanted a kitten I had a hard time finding one.

Up till a short while ago, DH was flippant about our bitch not being on lead and leaving gates open.  The question "but what if she has puppies?!" held no threat.  He just shrugged and said "So what if she does?  She's a lovely dog; she will make great puppies.  We'll just sell them and make some money."  Because everyone wants a puppy!

An ex friend of mine has a bitch who had 3 litters before she was spayed.  Getting rid of the puppies was no trouble at all, she had a queue of people beating at the door.  In the end she got fed up of claning up puppy poop and so she had the dog spayed.  The dog is still let out though and roams the nieghbourhood.  She will probably cause an accident one day. 

kpwlee

Lastly there seems to be an inference that being a responsible owner means keeping your dog intact and training it through or past it's sex drive issues.   

I would say a responsible owner does not allow their dog to breed indiscriminately, contains the dog and trains him properly.  If you feel speutering is a part of that for YOU and your current dog, great.  But if you were to AUTOMATICALLY make that choice for your next dog?  Not do great.  Or if you were to judge your neighbour, or myself, or anyone else, based on the fact we haven't speutered?   Also not great, IMO.  (I'm not saying you've done that - but many people do: "There is NO reason for a dog to stay intact", "Keeping a dog intact if you don't plan to breed is just irresponsible", etc.)

kpwlee

Honestly a responsible owner can have their dog s/n'd and have one less thing to worry about. 

I'll admit this disturbs me.  Not you specifically so much, but this mindset.... I come across it a lot.  I seem to be living in a society that, in general, is totally and utterly fine with surgically altering a dog basically for their own convenience (oh it's one less thing to worry about) but gasps in horror at the thought of tail docking.  It's just such a contradiction.  I find that very, very strange and I can't help but feel the AR pill is being unknowingly swallowed by too many people...

sillysally

I do not regret my decision to alter either of my pets nor am I ashamed of my reasons for altering them.  If others believe that this makes me only qualified to own a goldfish, tough ***.   

My post wasn't directed at you.  I even stated, quite plainly, that my questions were direct, honest and specifc.  You got your dogs altered because you don't think containing them is enough - they may still escape one day.  You also made an educated and thoughtful choice about Jack's behaviour and  took the risk that neutering would fix that - which it did.  (Lucky you - I also made an informed choice and he didn't respond to the op in the way we thought and hoped he would... and there's no way of re-attaching the vital parts once they have been lopped off.  Believe me, I know, I asked about it ) 

So, it seems like you have neutered your dogs based on your circumstances and their personality - the same as I have.

I'm not arguing against neutering (100 and counting) - I'm arguing against AUTOMATICALLY neutering every pet you ever own in the belief that it is the only course of action that is responsible.

In fact, from what you have stated, I can't see that you got your dogs speutered for convenience reasons at all, so my "goldfish" question wasn't directed at you either. If you felt you needed to respond to it though, why not actually answer it - why IS it OK to acquire a dog you can't handle and surgically alter him to make him "fit" in with what you want?  I'm not being snarky here - I am genuinely curious as to when, how and why that became OK and acceptable, because it seems like no one else sees a problem with it and I feel like I am on my own here.

- -

Strangely, I had a convo with my mum about neutering yesterday.  She has an intact dog and I was urging her to get him neutered for health reasons - or at least speak to her vet about it.  Not because I think neutering is the only responsible course of action, but because I think that it might be the best thing FOR THIS DOG.  There are several intact bitches in the area and every time one is in heat, he loses condition badly.  He won't eat, he loses weight, his coat looks dull and his skin flares up all flaky and itchy.  In an attempt to get him to eat she offers him all kinds of things, most of which he refuses and a few of which are so rich that he DOES take them and gets ill from it!  I honestly think he gets depressed and miserable, not his usual self at all.  I can't see any other way to solve this problem other than neutering.  Suggestions on a post card....? 

The majority of the dog owning public here in the United States is very, very ignorant.  People get dogs because A) they are bored, B) they are lonely and want companionship, C) they think it's what families are supposed to do, D) to teach their children responsibility over a living thing, and E) to teach their children about the miracle of life/birth.

The MAJORITY of people in the US do NOT train their dogs.  Some will attend one session of obedience classes and proclaim their dog "trained."  When I was teaching classes there were only one or two people who would actually attend every class in a session.  At least one or two from each session would quit halfway through.  Fewer than one dog per session would go on to intermediate/advanced obedience and/or agility.  Most people JUST DON'T CARE.

The people on this board are NOT the majority.  While a vast number of people on here would qualify for the "responsible" group, that is not a picture of the real world.  In the real world, we need to push for people to spay/neuter their pets  -- because those are the people who's dogs WILL get out and WILL create more unwanted dogs.

It would be a lot easier to control the pet population if these ignorant people simply thought that spay/neuter was the norm and something that all pet owners do.

Wouldn't it be nice if you had to pass a test before you were able to buy/adopt a dog (or have a human baby, for that matter)?  Unfortunately that's not the case -- so we must do our best to prevent unwanted puppies from being born -- and spay/neuter is the easiest way to accomplish that.

Education is the key -- but if these people don't care enough to train their dog in the first place, they aren't going to care about learning about responsible breeding.  The easiest thing is to prevent it.

KarissaKS

The majority of the dog owning public here in the United States is very, very ignorant.  People get dogs because A) they are bored, B) they are lonely and want companionship, C) they think it's what families are supposed to do, D) to teach their children responsibility over a living thing, and E) to teach their children about the miracle of life/birth.

The MAJORITY of people in the US do NOT train their dogs.  Some will attend one session of obedience classes and proclaim their dog "trained."  When I was teaching classes there were only one or two people who would actually attend every class in a session.  At least one or two from each session would quit halfway through.  Fewer than one dog per session would go on to intermediate/advanced obedience and/or agility.  Most people JUST DON'T CARE.

jennie_c_d

"Georgia Black Dogs" don't stand a chance....

It's so sad....my boy came from Spalding County, GA. I adopted him, literally, a few hours before he was to be gassed. The shelter told me they had several GBD's (I had never heard that term until then) and it was pretty rare somebody wanted one, especially since he wasn't a puppy or anything. I'm so happy I got my boy! Adopting him was probably the best decision I made. Sorry, OT!

KarissaKS

It would be a lot easier to control the pet population if these ignorant people simply thought that spay/neuter was the norm and something that all pet owners do.

Wouldn't it be nice if you had to pass a test before you were able to buy/adopt a dog (or have a human baby, for that matter)?  Unfortunately that's not the case -- so we must do our best to prevent unwanted puppies from being born -- and spay/neuter is the easiest way to accomplish that.

Education is the key -- but if these people don't care enough to train their dog in the first place, they aren't going to care about learning about responsible breeding.  The easiest thing is to prevent it.

I don't disagree, but the problem I see is that the speuter campaigns haven't seemed to reach the people that it really needs to reach.  The shelters and rescues around here do not release intact animals, and you do have to pass an application and interview process before adopting a dog (and with certain dogs you are required to sign up for the shelter's obedience classes as part of the adoption process).

From what I see, the big chunk of people not neutering their dogs and allowing them to breed are people that get their animals from BYBs/pet stores/puppy mills, or from each other.  Not the people getting dogs from the shelters, rescues, or decent breeders.  I met someone at our training club who has this dog called a Daisy Dog which I learned is some designer mix.  The dog was in full heat while we were testing for the CGC and I overheard her say she was planning to breed this dog.  When I grew up in a really bad neighborhood there was this guy with a Rottweiler and he was constantly breeding her and giving puppies away.  One time as kids we caught a loose lab mix and another stray dog wandered into our yard and these dogs bred several times.  I can't say I've ever met a pet owner who has a dog from a good breeder or a shelter/rescue who bred or planned to breed their dog.

So I don't know....it just seems the speuter campaign goes around in circles and never reaches the ones causing the problem.  That's not to say it's a bad idea or that it's the fault of the shelters and pro-speuter people, but it doesn't seem to be making much of a dent around here...

Chuffy

I'll admit this disturbs me.  Not you specifically so much, but this mindset.... I come across it a lot.  I seem to be living in a society that, in general, is totally and utterly fine with surgically altering a dog basically for their own convenience (oh it's one less thing to worry about) but gasps in horror at the thought of tail docking.  It's just such a contradiction.  I find that very, very strange and I can't help but feel the AR pill is being unknowingly swallowed by too many people...

 ITA! I cringe whenever I hear the "repsonsible owners spay and neuter" line. AR has really made huge strides towards their goals but still most people seem to think anyone saying so is an alarmist (and continue to spout AR propaganda as though it is undeniable fact).

 Maybe all dogs should be debarked too? I mean barking is one of the most common issues between neighbors, a reason dogs are given up and can be flat out annoying. Debarking would make for one less thing all owners, even responsible ones would have to worry about....

 I took the "one less thing to worry about" issue as meaning that if a dog demonstrates, usually in early adolescence, behaviours that likely will/could be curbed by neutering, then yes doing so means they no longer have to worry about those behaviours (assuming the neutering has the desired affect.)  Some of those behaviours can be very hard to deal with....had I been a more experienced owner at the time, it's likely that I'd have prevented Ben's lunging towards bitches in heat before it got to the point where the arthritis in my hands meant that I was literally screaming in pain when he got wind of a bitch nearby.   Neutering him did mean, yes, that I had one less thing to worry about on that front.

Where do you think 8 month old lassie and 2 year old rufus came from?  If people  did not have instant access to puppies due to overbreeding, then they wouldn't having anything to dump in a shelter.  No amount of education is going to help people who don't want to be bothered or take the time, or get bored when the novelty is worn off.  If people want a puppy, they will get one as long as it's available.

this is where education really CAN make a difference. These puppies don't come from "accidental breedings" from wandering intact dogs,  they come from people deliberately breeding them to meet a demand- puppy mills, BYBs. If you educate people into not-wanting puppies from these sources the demand goes away. And then these people have no reason to mass-produce puppies. No amount of spay/neuter campaigning, or even mandatory spay/neuter laws, will affect this situation- these people will not spay/neuter- the only solution is education of the public. The next step is to educate the public into not-thinking dogs are disposable, and into learning how to train dogs into pleasant companions instead of irritations.