Neuter/spay - Why? Why not?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Neuter/spay - Why? Why not?

    This is a spin-off of the thread of whether neutering decreases aggression.

    Some seem to think it doesn't. I didn't notice any change in Shadow's aggression level from neutering. I did notice that he quit humping. He still likes girls but I haven't seen him try to mount.

    I had Shadow neutered at 2.5 years. He was given to us at 1 year 2 months, intact. A friend with a female Lab wanted to have Shadow sire a litter. At the time, I didn't know much and was learning all the time. I wasn't concerned with pure breeding. I was concerned that all the puppies get a good home and I couldn't guarantee that with a litter of mongrels. In breeding terms, Shadow is a mutt, a mix of two purebreeds. A mix of any more than two purebreeds is a mongrel. So a mix of Shadow being Siberian Husky/Lab and a Lab, would be mongrels. Anyway, the more I understood about breeding and the ethics of it and most especially, the cost of birthing a litter and taking care of 4 to 6 new dogs with no more than a 50 percent chance of staying out of the shelter, I decided Shadow shouldn't breed at all. Hunters who wanted a Lab kind of dog might be displeased to find that their dog retrieves and heeds calls like a Siberian. I.E., only when it suits the dog. The litter would be never be show-worthy and couldn't be registered anywhere. And how would we sell the rest of the pups? At the Home Depot parking lot? For how much? People can go to the shelter and get a mixed breed (actually, any breed or size) for $44. That includes legal ownership, shots, and neuter/spay. People that work in shelters can tell you what happens with intact pets that people are supposed to contain.

    We can't get people to quit buyng from pet stores, let alone properly manage their pets intact. It was said in the other thread that dogs get behavior problems from being neutered. I haven't seen that in my experience and I was not aware of any clinical study that defines that link. Though we could certainly review such here. Some say that neutering also causes ill health effects.

    I'm a bad owner. I can't contain Shadow properly. Because DW and I work outside of the house, Shadow could be outside in the yard from 4 to 8 hours at a stretch and a couple of days if we go out of town. He has never jumped the 4 foot chain link fence. He is deathly afraid of kennels. Seriously, he will release his glands upon you if he thinks you are trying to put him in a kennel. So, he's happier and safer in the back yard. What if he did get out? Or a loose female got in? Well, there won't be any litter from that. Shadow will not sire a litter. He will not suffer from testicular cancer, prostatitis, prostate cancer, or a herniated perineum from enlarged prostate. I had him neutered when he was 2.5 years old. Because the hormone drive to procreate is not as strong, he is less likely to try and get out for the purposes of mating. That doesn't mean he may not try to get out but there is less of a reason in one direction to try and get out.

    Fact of the matter is, a lot of people don't use proper training or containment or get harangued because they do contain. Just because not all people neuter or contain responsibly doesn't mean we should abandon neuter/spay as a practice.

    I am not judging harshly or badly those here who keep intact pets. Nor am I trying to defend for my own purposes my reasons for neutering. In fact, at the time, DW thought it was a good idea, the vet thought it was a good idea, just about everyone here thought I was just so responsible. Now, I might have caused my dog behavior problems because of the drop in testosterone? I might expose him to other health risks because of neutering? This would be news to me. My vet never said anything like that and most vets and trainers I have read or talked to support neutering. And no, my vet doesn't support neutering to make money. It cost $60 dollars to neuter Shadow and that was just to cover costs. If Shadow had weighed over 60 lbs at the time, it would have skyrocketed to $65. So, I won't buy the notion that the vet supports neutering just to rack up aother vet bill. Nor does he get big kickbacks from selling Purina precription foods. His 10-year-old Dodge truck has a beat-up paint job as the least of its worries.

    Testosterone does have an effect. Profound effects in humans, for sure. My friend, Tom, was found to have low levels of testosterone. His doctor put him on the patch a few years. His words, "it was like going through puberty again, but at the age of 45." Just about everything in the environment created a response, if you get my drift.

    I had Shadow neutered to prevent unwanted litters because I am not perfect and one cannot always guarantee containment unless the dog is under 24/7 lockdown. What kind of life is that? I also thought it was good, in order to prevent other health issues. I didn't expect it to do much for aggression and I agree that it may not help aggression, at least as a talking point until we can see some peer review studies or literature. And I'm a guy. I'm not fond of the idea of cutting out testicles. Nor do I like surgery. But it's not about my feelings or likes or dislikes. It's about what I see, and other saw, as proper animal husbandry. On a ranch, they cut all the bulls except the breeding bull. You can't contain 2,000 lbs of Black Angus or Romagnolia or Limousin as easily as you might think. And it's easier to cut bulls than to spay cows. It is easier to neuter dogs than it is to spay bitches.

    Anyway, I hope this thread allows everyone to express their views, regardless of who finds it agreeable, or not.

     

    • Gold Top Dog
    • Gold Top Dog

     I spay my girls because a lot of my friends own intact males and I don't want a litter.  I don't believe in my abilty to contain my dogs UNLESS I built the fence my self. Now if I owned show dogs then yes I would be more active in keeping them under control. Plus I would own Males not Females.

    • Gold Top Dog

    oranges81

     I spay my girls because a lot of my friends own intact males and I don't want a litter.  I don't believe in my abilty to contain my dogs UNLESS I built the fence my self. Now if I owned show dogs then yes I would be more active in keeping them under control. Plus I would own Males not Females.

    Plus, if I'm not mistaken, in some types of dog show/events, the dogs are kept intact in case they are champions or finish well, so that they can be bred to further the breed in a like fashion. I also understand that once the breeding years are past, they are spayed/neutered. That is, they are not overbred and then are fixed to avoid any unwanted litters. Or whatever other reasons for neutering and spaying.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    First, my decision would be based on the individual dog (the age, breed, pedigree, plans for the dog...).

    Kenya was spayed when I got her.  She was spayed at age 4. If she had not been spayed, I would have done it.  Female GSDs are at risk for pyometra and some cancers when left intact.  The only reason not to would be breeding (which I would not have done) or more showing (which would have been fun but she already had her U-CH).

    Coke was neutered when I got him. I also would have had him done anyway, since he is a mutt so cannot show in any venue and is not a candidate for breeding.  I would have liked to have waited though, I think he was done too young.

    At this point I do not plan to neuter Nikon.  He will be shown.  I will not make a decision either way about breeding until he matures physically and has enough training and titling in the work and show rings to make a call one way or the other.  If he is not used as a stud, he may still be left intact.  We will see...

    In general I'd probably spay every bitch I'd own.  I have NO interest in breeding as far as whelping puppies, I'd rather take part in the training, showing and titling so I will stick to studs for now.  I've only ever had ONE bitch in ONE heat for two days and that was enough for me!!  Also, I think the owner of the bitch carries the responsibility for ensuring there are no "oops" litters if the dog is ever taken in public and I'd just rather not deal with that. I like male dogs better anyway. Also I don't like spaying/neutering really young and since I don't want to deal with heat cycles I guess that means no more bitches for me unless they are ones I adopt as adults.  So I plan to sick with males and keep them intact unless I have a reason otherwise.  Issues like humping and marking can be addressed with management and training.  I've seen plenty of both from neutered dogs anyway.

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2

    oranges81

     I spay my girls because a lot of my friends own intact males and I don't want a litter.  I don't believe in my abilty to contain my dogs UNLESS I built the fence my self. Now if I owned show dogs then yes I would be more active in keeping them under control. Plus I would own Males not Females.

    Plus, if I'm not mistaken, in some types of dog show/events, the dogs are kept intact in case they are champions or finish well, so that they can be bred to further the breed in a like fashion. I also understand that once the breeding years are past, they are spayed/neutered. That is, they are not overbred and then are fixed to avoid any unwanted litters. Or whatever other reasons for neutering and spaying.

     

     

    Exactly. If and when I felt my boys wouldn't add anything to their breed, I would neuter them and try again with another dog. I won't breed unless I felt that my dogs would add something to the breed blood line. Because my girls are mixes and under the breed standard, they will be spayed. My oldest is already spayed. My youngest, I'm thinking about letting her have one season but I'm not sure yet. It depends on my income situation when the time comes. As it is, I don't spay until my dogs are 8 months old or older.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Emma was spayed, at 8 weeks, against my will, LOL. Shelter policy states that all pets must be altered BEFORE leaving the premesis. I understand that, and especially with a litter of purebred puppies. Emma Nems is incontinent. She grew taller after she turned 2. She has behavioral issues, but I don't know enough to know whether they're related or not. My lovely Emma Nems also suffered from puppy vaginitis, and has an underdeveloped vulva. She's very prone to yeast and bacterial infections, in her tiny folds.

     

    Ena is 10 months, and not spayed. I hadn't planned to spay her, for some time, but she's currently going through her THIRD season. *IF* her fourth season is as untimely as her second and third, she'll be spayed as soon as she finishes it. If it's a more normal cycle, I'll keep her intact, for a while, to play at conformation. She will not be bred. She's a nice bitch, but her background is unknown, and she isn't foundation bitch nice. That bitch will come, later. 

     

    I am a believer that we have parts for a reason. Ovaries aren't just for reproduction, or they would have taken mine out, by now. We need our hormones for physical and mental development.  Given the choice, from here on out, I will allow every dog to mature before it's altered (so over 18 months).

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    Spaying makes some dogs less active. Pets that have been spayed tend to be less active. If a more sedentary dog is not for you, spaying may not be the best option.

    I don't agree with this statement at all. I took this from the link to Pros and Cons of Spaying an Neutering. I have a very active 2 year old who was spayed at 8 months. Her energy level actually increased as she got older.  I feel sorry for the person that spayed their dog believing this statement.

    • Gold Top Dog

    *IF* spaying makes dogs less active, Emma would be scary scary unaltered. At five years old, she's far more active than most pet dogs. We can walk five miles, and play frisbee for an hour, then she'll swim for a little while, have a nap, and want to go again. She isn't *hyper* like a puppy, but she has endless, wonderful energy.

    • Gold Top Dog

    jennie_c_d

    *IF* spaying makes dogs less active, Emma would be scary scary unaltered. At five years old, she's far more active than most pet dogs. We can walk five miles, and play frisbee for an hour, then she'll swim for a little while, have a nap, and want to go again. She isn't *hyper* like a puppy, but she has endless, wonderful energy.

     

    Same with Maze. Lol I'd hate to see her if spaying did make dogs less active. Right now she's got the endless energy but it's not hyper active puppy energy. Which is great! Cuz I've got that with Sandy right now. Lol. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Good point. And Liesje gave a good and valid response,as well. Im not against keeping animals intact for some reasons and I'm not against pure breeding, either. If a dog appears to have the right characteristics and, even better, gets titled or shown successfully and others agree to the dog's worthiness, keeping them intact would serve the purpose of the breed. Again, though, that is breeding by human standards.

    In the links I provided, the last one actually had some pertinent information in regards to behavior. Neutering doesn't necessarily reduce aggression, though it can, in some cases, remove a bone of contention, as it were. Some dogs are not as driven to mate after neutering and therefore can possibly be less likely to get in fights for breeding rights. When I took Shadow to the dog park when he was still intact, how would that differ if I had taken him there after neutering? Would he have spent as much energy challenging males as he did if there wasn't that drive to mate with the lovely Golden he seemed to have favored. He didn't get in any fights but neither could I control him and being intact had nothing to do with that. Being intact was a risk factor, should one of the females also be intact. But might he have acted differently without so much drive to mate? Possibly so.

    I could conceivably have left him intact. He does not get out of the yard. He is fast enough and strong enough to get over the fence but yet he doesn't. In spite of daily opportunity and other loose dogs that might tempt him to try. In spite of being out of town for a few days with only the neighbor to look in on him as her work schedule permits. But the benefits of neutering outweighed any imagined or real risks, at least for us. And because I am more likely to adopt from a shelter, perhaps I don't see the need to keep a dog intact as all that overpowering. Look at Petfinder and choose the Dallas or Plano area as a locus. I can find a Siberian Husky in a minute. Or, any dog I care to find. They are everywhere. Possibly because the practice of managing intact pets is not as successful as we would like it to be. I wonder what will happen with this recession/depression. 500,000 lost their jobs in November. How many will have to surrender a pet because they can no longer afford one, intact or neutered? And can the shelters depend on average citizens to be able to contain that pet against others of opposite gender in heat? Or is it better to neuter/spay so that there is no problem of even more litters?

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     I'm hoping that with this depression going on, that shelters are willing to help pet owners out with spay/neuters and other care they may need.

    I also think that shelters aren't built to deal with intact animals in heat. At least around here they're not. My SPCA spay/neuters almost as soon as the animal gets picked up.

    Although where I live, the SPCA couldn't give a rat's @$$ about us pet owners if we can't make them money. They're charging about 150$ for a dog and 120$ for a cat. I'm all for rescuing but around here it's nearly impossible to rescue unless you make a certain amount each month. 

    Maze's agression didn't change when I got her spayed. Partly my fault and partly her genetic make up. I didn't socialize her enough and her background is littered with agressive dogs.

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2

    I am not judging harshly or badly those here who keep intact pets. Nor am I trying to defend for my own purposes my reasons for neutering. In fact, at the time, DW thought it was a good idea, the vet thought it was a good idea, just about everyone here thought I was just so responsible. Now, I might have caused my dog behavior problems because of the drop in testosterone? I might expose him to other health risks because of neutering? This would be news to me.

     There are both pros and cons healthwise to altering and there can be some negative impact on behavior. Unfortunately, thanks to AR propaganda most everyone, even vets and trainers have been nearly brainwashed into believing altering is the very best thing you can do for a dog.

    "The study that identified a higher incidence of cranial cruciate ligament rupture in spayed or neutered dogs also identified an increased incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered early.(5) Further, the study that identified a higher incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs neutered or spayed before 5 1/2 months also showed that early age gonadectomy was associated with an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.(6) A recent report of the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.(12)"

     "A retrospective study of cardiac tumors in dogs showed that there was a 5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma, one of the three most common cancers in dogs, in spayed bitches than intact bitches and a 2.4 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma in neutered dogs as compared to intact males.(7) A study of 3218 dogs demonstrated that dogs that were neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer.(8) A separate study showed that neutered dogs had a two-fold higher risk of developing bone cancer.(9) Despite the common belief that neutering dogs helps prevent prostate cancer, at least one study suggests that neutering provides no benefit.(10) There certainly is evidence of a slightly increased risk of mammary cancer in female dogs after one heat cycle, and for increased risk with each subsequent heat. While about 30 % of mammary cancers are malignant, as in humans, when caught and surgically removed early the prognosis is very good.(12) Luckily, canine athletes are handled frequently and generally receive prompt veterinary care."

     http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks for the link. I noticed, in the vet's opinion, at the end, he suggested that dogs should be spayed and neutered only after 14 months of age. But that he did not recommend against spaying and neutering. And that his primary concern seemed to be developmental issues in bone growth. And, like others, I wonder how many dogs are aggressive after neuter not because the neuter made them so but because the humans got lazy and thought, why should I train, the snip took care of that. He also suggested vasectomy and tubal ligation, rather than gonadectomy. That is, keep the hormones in circulation while avoiding the chance of pregnancy. He also stated that the results were not conclusive and need further study.

    And I suppose I was "successful" at containing Shadow until I had him neutered at 2.5 years. But I think some doggy day cares and maybe some dog parks won't allow use of them unless the dogs are altered. Not that SChH 3 dog or a Westminster BIS will be in a doggy day care. They are also not the average household pet owner.

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2

     Not that SChH 3 dog or a Westminster BIS will be in a doggy day care. They are also not the average household pet owner.

     

    A SchH3 dog can be a neutered mutt :)

    My friend runs a doggy day care and will not accept unaltered dogs.  I don't think it's because of supposed aggression, but it's too much liability as far as breeding.  That I completely understand.  I would not want anyone else handling my intact male around bitches in season or vice versa anyway.  My vet must allow intact dogs to be boarded b/c when I pulled a sick shelter dog I boarded her there and she was in heat (hence why we ended up boarding her until the rescue came to get her, I took her home and all three dogs were ready to rip each other's throats out and my two were altered!).  My vet asked me if I wanted to schedule a neuter for Nikon and I simply said "no" in a tone that implied it was not up for discussion.  I realized I will have to pay more for my dog licenses and will be limited as to where I can board him.  Typically I prefer boarding kennels that are just that - kennels - because when I'm gone I just need to be guaranteed my dogs are safe and cannot escape, I don't think they will get irrepairably depressed if they cannot play with a pack of dogs for three days.