Neuter/spay - Why? Why not?

All of my animals are and will be spayed or neutered. I have no desire to show or breed - and no desire to own an intact animal.

My cats were all fixed at different ages - and the smallest ones are the ones that were fixed at a later age (6-9 months). The big boy was fixed at 8 weeks - and is one solid, muscled 13 lb cat. Was he fixed too early? His body doesn't show it. My 14 year old female was spayed at 8 weeks, and the only health problem she's ever had was after our cross country move to FL and that was brought on by stress. The arguements for keeping an animal intact don't compare to my personal expierences, sorry.

pudel

Chuffy

Said problem has not been solved by the speuter crusade and I don't think it will be.  

 Based on what?

Based on two things - 

1. Well it hasn't worked so far....

and

2. It is NOT just the fact that animals are intact that is causing a problem.  It's that they are owned by irresponsible people who don't contain them, train them or control them adequately.

Instead of firing all energies into "fixing" the animals (who are not broken by the way; there is nothing inherently "wrong" with an intact animal), we should be "fixing" their owners - educating and enabling them to be better owners with a greater level of commitment to the dog.  The "NEUTER" crusade is detrimental to that very issue, IMO - "oh if you don't want to handle the mess she makes just slice her open and take the offending bits out! " clangs against what dog ownership should be for me.... 

Neutering does not a responsible owner make.... you can neuter you dog and still not bother to train him or contain him properly, you can neuter the dog and still dump him at the nearest shelter when he stops being a cute puppy wuppy, or when you move house/have a baby/develop an "allergy"/buy a new sofa or carpet that the dog hair shows up on.... 

Some people make an educated decision to neuter their pets.  That's cool.  Some people have been virtually brainwashed into thinking it's the ONLY right thing to do for ALL dogs... my own experiences have shown me that this is clearly NOT the case.  Neutering is not the WRONG thing to do.... in all cases.  It is not the RIGHT thing to do in all cases either.  And by trying to get everyone to do it to "solve the population problem!!!" - well I think we are barking up the wrong tree.

Chuffy

we should be "fixing" their owners - educating and enabling them to be better owners. 

And education has worked?  I've been hearing about this education for years and years and it hasn't done a thing.  Shelters are overcrowded because there are too many dogs.  There are too many dogs because there is too much breeding. If indrescirminate breeding stopped, than the irresponsible owners wouldn't have dogs to dump at a shelter.

LillianD

If she were in heat she'd be more likely to roam, which would pose a greater risk of danger to her. 

My puppy is in season, right now, and totally unable to roam.... Suprivision stops that. She can climb the fence in half a second, but she's only done it one time, and that was to follow me. She's been totally suprivised in the yard, ever since. 

The whole "escaping to roam" thing baffles me.... I have a Chinese Crested. They're extremely hardheaded, and driven. They're *known* for being able to "escape" from anything. I also have a Parson Russell Terrier. Same story. The PRT opens crates, gates, climbs, jumps, does whatever she wants, pretty much. The Crested isn't old enough to have figured all that out, yet. Neither dog has ever "escaped" or "roamed. I just.... watch them. It doesn't have anything to do with being intact, or in season, or their breeds. It's just basic safety. I watch them, in case something goes wrong, all the time. I do extra careful watching when the baby is in season, but that's not a big deal... 

And, FWIW, I do respect the decision to alter an animal based on whatever reason you've got. ANY reason to alter is better than breeding (intentionally or not) less than excellent quality dogs. I also respect the decision to keep an animal intact, as long as it isn't causing a problem. 

pudel

Chuffy

we should be "fixing" their owners - educating and enabling them to be better owners. 

And education has worked?  I've been hearing about this education for years and years and it hasn't done a thing.  Shelters are overcrowded because there are too many dogs.  There are too many dogs because there is too much breeding. If indrescirminate breeding stopped, than the irresponsible owners wouldn't have dogs to dump at a shelter.

Here in the UK I think the "responsible pet ownership" message IS working.  And is doing dogs MORE favours than the "neuter" message.

If the education is not working in a given area, then I can think of three reasons.

1 - because too much energy is being poured into the NEUTER crusade, and not into REALLY making folks aware about what responsible pet ownership really is.

2 - because the people who won't take the "education" on board are largely the same as those who can't be bothered to neuter either.... the caring people are already doing all they should be doing to look after the dog properly - like Jennie (above ^ ^).  Taking time for the dog.  Supervising the dog.  Containing, controlling and training the dog. Etc.

3 - because I think the "neuter" message is actually contradictory to the "dogs are a lot of work and a big commitment" message, as per my previous posts.

You know we are telling people "research your breed! pick the breed that SUITS your lifestyle, not one you like the look of!"  And then folks read the propaganda about neutering and think it will calm the dog down ANYWAY, so what the hey if they get a high energy sporting dog if they have to work 10 hours a day and leave the dog alone?  Yes, I know some people who think this way.

This is the bottom line on the population issue:  Why are shelters so full?  NOT because, someone, somewhere didn't neuter their dog.  Shelters are full because someone, somewhere, was not COMMITTED to that dog.  Otherwise, shelters would be literally FULL of litters and pregnant bitches (the unwanted oops litters) and almost no other dogs.

As it is, the folks who jolly well SHOULD get their pets neutered (my sister, my mother) are the very ones who resolutely WON'T because they INTEND to have a litter.  When I told them "get your pets neutered!" I was ignored.  When I told them about what it is to breed PROPERLY, they paused and thought about it.  So far, niether has bred theor dog and it is my hope taht they will decide "woah, too much work!" and do all they can to prevent pups (planned or otherwise).  For them, that might be neutering. Or it might not.

Shelters are overcrowded because there are too many dogs.  There are too many dogs because there is too much breeding. If indrescirminate breeding stopped, than the irresponsible owners wouldn't have dogs to dump at a shelter.

not true. Here the spay/neuter campaign has worked. You don't see stray dogs. You don't see intact dogs. The shelters are full. Not of puppies, of adult dogs. Why do they end up in shelters? cause owners think dogs are disposable. Has nothing to do with "breeding". They actually import puppies to shelters in our area because there ARE NO LOCAL EXCESS PUPPIES. Lots of local excess ADULT AND ADOLESCENT DOGS. Breeding is not the problem. The people who bring 8 month old lassie and 2 year old rufus to the shelters have no interest in adopting any of the non-puppies at the shelter. Not a lack of homes, not an excess of dogs, what we have is people who want puppies and aren't willing to keep them when they aren't puppies anymore. If no puppies were available they wouldn't open their homes to adult dogs. What we need is education about how dogs are for 15 years and how to train them to be good companions for life, not mass surgery campaigns.

 Thanks, mud

mudpuppy

Shelters are overcrowded because there are too many dogs.  There are too many dogs because there is too much breeding. If indrescirminate breeding stopped, than the irresponsible owners wouldn't have dogs to dump at a shelter.

not true. Here the spay/neuter campaign has worked. You don't see stray dogs. You don't see intact dogs. The shelters are full. Not of puppies, of adult dogs. Why do they end up in shelters? cause owners think dogs are disposable. Has nothing to do with "breeding". They actually import puppies to shelters in our area because there ARE NO LOCAL EXCESS PUPPIES. Lots of local excess ADULT AND ADOLESCENT DOGS. Breeding is not the problem. The people who bring 8 month old lassie and 2 year old rufus to the shelters have no interest in adopting any of the non-puppies at the shelter. Not a lack of homes, not an excess of dogs, what we have is people who want puppies and aren't willing to keep them when they aren't puppies anymore. If no puppies were available they wouldn't open their homes to adult dogs. What we need is education about how dogs are for 15 years and how to train them to be good companions for life, not mass surgery campaigns.

So you are saying there is no overpopulation problem?  Where do you think 8 month old lassie and 2 year old rufus came from?  If people  did not have instant access to puppies due to overbreeding, then they wouldn't having anything to dump in a shelter.  No amount of education is going to help people who don't want to be bothered or take the time, or get bored when the novelty is worn off.  If people want a puppy, they will get one as long as it's available.

By "over population problem" I assume you mean the number of dogs in shelters without homes.  This is caused by people dumping the dog at the earliest opportunity.... Not because too many dogs have been born.  Shelters in general are not full of unwanted puppies.  Strangely puppies always have a queue of folks beating down the door to give them a loving "forever home".

Chuffy

Neutering does not a responsible owner make

It did a few years ago. 12-07-05. When I had Shadow neutered, a number of people here thought it was a responsible thing for me to do, along with the training I do. That is, the neutering was part of responsible ownership. The risk of neutering was outweighed by the risk of not neutering.

Let me repeat one of my own observations that bugs people. You can eat right, get plenty of rest, exercise, not smoke, not drink to excess, reduce stress, get health check-ups. And, sometime between 70 and 100 years of age, you will die. Get used to it. In the same vein, it doesn't matter whether we spay/neuter or not, something will cause our pets to die. By neutering, we can avoid future litters. Shadow did not suffer increased aggression or, near as I can tell, behavior problems with other dogs after neuter. And yes, his getting better with other dogs was due to training, not neuter.

The question was asked about humans still being intact, etc, etc. I'll go you one further. Have you ever had to make the decision to end a human's life? My brother did. Our mother had a DNR wish and brother had to follow it. So, my family has been a little bit past the moral or ethical quandary of spaying/neutering a pet. But here's the deal. Humans have the ability to control conception. Dogs do not. Never saying never always begs the exception. "Oh, I'll never allow my dogs around other uncontrolled intact dogs." Alrighty then.

Sherman Animal Care and Control just received a female GSD and her litter of pups. And yeah, you can neuter all the pups (all males) and that didn't hold down the shelter population, this time. But, if the person keeping the intact dogs had been better at it, or if the dogs had been spayed or neutered, the litter would not have been bred. And that's five pups that will not sire even more litters. I don't know if this was a case of a "breeder" chickening out or an oops litter from people who keep intact pets, or what. One could say that since people still get pregnant, why bother using condoms? Well the only reason condoms are not 100% is because people don't use them all the time. So, saying that neuter/spay is not preventing unwanted litters follows that same logic. To use the statement to make point, it's the people, not the op. But the op is a tool. And dogs do not have the same rights as humans. To say that they should stay intact like a human and should have the right to do so is, imo, close to saying that they should have the same rights as humans, a goal of the AR crowd, I believe.

As for having perfect control over one's dog, let me repeat another story. A man had a Sibe that won off-leash obedience awards. That was work to the dog. One day, while visiting outside the yard with a friend and the dog was off-leash, the dog smelled something interesting and took off and was never seen again. Granted, that independence is a breed trait but I'm sure the owner was confident and competent and in no way an irresponsible owner.

No, not everyone has to neuter. Most should. Most average citizens, that is. I hold to my earlier point that in the average home, neutered is best. And no, it doesn't cure aggression. Yes, there are some health risk. But it does prevent future litters.

ron2

No, not everyone has to neuter. Most should. Most average citizens, that is. I hold to my earlier point that in the average home, neutered is best. And no, it doesn't cure aggression. Yes, there are some health risk. But it does prevent future litters.

The only difference between an "average" home and a "show" home (as an example of a home where the dogs must remain intact) is that the show home chose to educate him/her/themselves on the measures to take to prevent oops litters.  Most are successful at it.  Those people themselves were not born with magical powers that us "average" people could never hope to attain...as with so much, education is key.  And yes, neutering can be an educated decision, but it can also be a decision made for the wrong reasons or with the wrong information.

Chuffy

This is caused by people dumping the dog at the earliest opportunity.... Not because too many dogs have been born.

 And you think education will stop this?  It hasn't yet, why should it start now? Of course the shelters are not full of unwanted puppies.  Puppies are what people want, which creates a demand.  People breed to satisfy a demand.  Person buys the puppy, or gets puppy from neighbor's "oops" litter, no questions asked, and dumps it when it's no longer a puppy. You think people need you to educate them that puppies grow up into adult dogs as if they don't already know?   They do know and it doesn't stop anyone from buying them.

What we need is education about how dogs are for 15 years and how to train them to be good companions for life,

Again, you think people need to be educated that dogs live for 15 years?   And training - people have to be somewhat responsible to begin with to seek out and pay for training.  Are you planning on giving out free training classes every day for every puppy that gets sold in your area?  

I neutered both my dogs around the 6 month mark. I did not see any negative effects with respect to personality or physical development.  Zack stopped humping every female dog, intact or not, in sight, so that was a plus!  It also helped tremendously with his housebreaking.

mudpuppy

Shelters are overcrowded because there are too many dogs.  There are too many dogs because there is too much breeding. If indrescirminate breeding stopped, than the irresponsible owners wouldn't have dogs to dump at a shelter.

not true. Here the spay/neuter campaign has worked. You don't see stray dogs. You don't see intact dogs. The shelters are full. Not of puppies, of adult dogs. Why do they end up in shelters? cause owners think dogs are disposable. Has nothing to do with "breeding". They actually import puppies to shelters in our area because there ARE NO LOCAL EXCESS PUPPIES. Lots of local excess ADULT AND ADOLESCENT DOGS.

MP I think it is wonderful that is has worked in your area - it sure hasn't here.  Shelters are full of pups, a handful of adolescents and another handful of youngish dogs.  As I said in the other post our newspaper has a ridiculous amount of ads for puppies starting at 5 wks old and the majority are all of 6 wks old.  It doesn't appear to be puppy mills just people with their intact dogs of mixed breeds and less than quality breeding trying to make a little money from their pet to defray the cost of owning said pet.

Any of you that think you are going to educate these numskulls to not breed their dog or to be 'better' owners so their dogs don't make more dogs are flat out clueless.  Sorry to be so blunt but the notion that you are going to educate these idiots is laughable to me.

I never have and never will support mandatory s/n but I will always say for joe public an altered dog is the best option.  A local study was done showing that less than 10% of people that walked out of shelters with an intact dog and who promised to get the dog s/n'd actually did get the dog s/n'd.

Also stray dogs are all over and often found with pups.  There was an article recently about the rise of completely feral dogs.

Personally I sure as heck wouldn't have an intact female for any reason - taking care of my monthly issues is plenty for me.  I can't see myself keeping a male intact permanently either.  Having a dog like Bugsy who is super powerful and has psycho drive could potentially be a nightmare should he need to find a female.  He has presented many training challenges all of which exaggerated by his intensity and power.  Why would I knowingly want to make my life even harder?

Lastly there seems to be an inference that being a responsible owner means keeping your dog intact and training it through or past it's sex drive issues.  Honestly a responsible owner can have their dog s/n'd and have one less thing to worry about. 

Chuffy

Are you "intact"?  Do you want kids?  If yes, and no, then why?

KarissaKS

Why would anyone knowingly want to be put in that position of responsibility when the other option (spay/neuter) is so much easier/better all around?

 

 

Look at it the other way round - why would you bother to put your dog through an invasive medical procedure at 2 years old?  What's the point?  What will be "easier and better" after his op?  This is a specific, honest and direct question, not a rhetorical one.

If you don't want that responsibility - why not get a goldfish, that doesn't have to be surgically altered so that you can "handle the responsibility" of caring for it?

The initial reason why we spayed Sally was that we did not want to deal with the heat cycles nor did we want to risk and accidental breeding.  My reasons have not changed.  Do you know how many pit bulls get good homes in the US?  Roughly 1 in 400.  And yes, many of the pitties in shelters *are* pups.  These are the results for a Petfinder search under "baby pit bull" in my area code--you'll notice the high number of results. http://www.petfinder.com/search/search.cgi?pet.Animal=Dog&pet.Breed=pit+bull&pet.Age=baby&pet.Size=&pet.Sex=&location=46350

In addition, spaying her (we hope) might make her less attractive for theft--anyone who asks about her is told first that she is spayed.  Also, she is timid.  We have no idea of what her first year of life was like, so we don't know is this was hereditary or not.

With Jack it was several reasons.  First, he was humping every female he got near.  Sally refused to *really* correct him, and I was terrified that he was going to get his face ripped off after humping the wrong dog at the dog park or day care.  Secondly, I was concerned that he would become a target for other males at the park.

The final and most important concern with Jack was the fact that he has elbow dysplasia.  What if he got to a female.  Sorry, but I don't care how vigilant an owner is, they cannot ever say that their dog will NEVER escape.  Jack has gone through surgery, physical therapy (which was a 4 hour round trip done once or twice a week for many months), has to be on special supplements, has to be on special food, cannot join us for long hikes, has to have his playing with Sally and at the park carefully monitored, really cannot spend a whole day at day care, cannot be allowed to run off leash through the woods, even though he has awesome recall, etc.  Why would any humane person want to risk passing that to another dog, even if that chance is remote?  We took out a loan against DH's 401K that we are *still* paying off.  His condition has literally cost us thousands of dollars, not to mention worry and heartache.  The fact that he is happy and with us makes it all worth it, but how many people can or will pay out that much money and hardship for their dog?  I could never live with myself knowing that he passed that along to another pup.

I do not regret my decision to alter either of my pets nor am I ashamed of my reasons for altering them.  If others believe that this makes me only qualified to own a goldfish, tough ***.