Neuter/spay - Why? Why not?

And we all know that education of any kind is way down on the list of priorities of the government be it local or federal, despite what the pol's claim when they are running for office. 

mudpuppy

If you educate people into not-wanting puppies from these sources the demand goes away. And then these people have no reason to mass-produce puppies.

 You stated earlier that were were not very many puppies at your nearby shelter.  And we all know responsible breeders are few and far between.  So where else are they going to get their puppy?

 I would dare anyone to try to convince your average ignoramus to forgo getting a puppy altogether  because puppy mills add to an overpopulation problem.  Seriously.

pudel

I would dare anyone to try to convince your average ignoramus to forgo getting a puppy altogether  because puppy mills add to an overpopulation problem.  Seriously.

So it's better not to try to educate them about puppy mills, sit back while they get their dog and funnel cash into the puppy mill system, and then proclaim that neutering is the answer to all evils?  

Benedict

So it's better not to try to educate them about puppy mills, sit back while they get their dog and funnel cash into the puppy mill system, and then proclaim that neutering is the answer to all evils?  

 How exactly do you advocate educating them?  And better yet, reaching them before they make their purchase?

KarissaKS

The majority of the dog owning public here in the United States is very, very ignorant.  People get dogs because A) they are bored, B) they are lonely and want companionship, C) they think it's what families are supposed to do, D) to teach their children responsibility over a living thing, and E) to teach their children about the miracle of life/birth.

The MAJORITY of people in the US do NOT train their dogs.  Some will attend one session of obedience classes and proclaim their dog "trained."  When I was teaching classes there were only one or two people who would actually attend every class in a session.  At least one or two from each session would quit halfway through.  Fewer than one dog per session would go on to intermediate/advanced obedience and/or agility.  Most people JUST DON'T CARE.

The people on this board are NOT the majority.  While a vast number of people on here would qualify for the "responsible" group, that is not a picture of the real world.  In the real world, we need to push for people to spay/neuter their pets  -- because those are the people who's dogs WILL get out and WILL create more unwanted dogs.

It would be a lot easier to control the pet population if these ignorant people simply thought that spay/neuter was the norm and something that all pet owners do.

Wouldn't it be nice if you had to pass a test before you were able to buy/adopt a dog (or have a human baby, for that matter)?  Unfortunately that's not the case -- so we must do our best to prevent unwanted puppies from being born -- and spay/neuter is the easiest way to accomplish that.

Education is the key -- but if these people don't care enough to train their dog in the first place, they aren't going to care about learning about responsible breeding.  The easiest thing is to prevent it.

I'm in agreement with A LOT of this, but I don't feel it has addressed any of the points I raised.  I can see why you might want to encourage other people to neuter THEIR dog, based on what you have said.  But I still don't see how that impacts on a decision about a medical procedure for YOUR dog, or how it will make life easier for him - or you - after the op.

If Kaiser doesn't have a future as a breeding stud, he will be neutered because that is what I feel is appropriate.  I firmly believe in spaying and neutering all non-breeding and non-showing dogs once they have reached age of maturity.  I don't view the neutering procedure to be invasive or dangerous to the average dog -- although I will grant you that it does tend to be harder on the older dogs, as they don't heal as quickly as the young pups.

It is my opinion that neutered dogs are easier to care for -- if Kaiser is neutered I won't have to keep asking everyone if their female dog he is playing with is spayed.  At just under a year old, I can't say that he has been displaying any behavior I disapprove of YET.  I have put a lot of training into this dog, though, and surely that helps.

I just see absolutely no reason to keep him intact if he's not breeding.  Millions of spays and neuters have been performed in this country with zero negative effects.  The odds of having something go wrong in a neuter are very small.

If I had a female I would feel the same way, though.  Pyometria is a very real problem in the Klee Kai world and I know of many breeders who have lost, or nearly lost, their bitches to this infection.  It is most definitely a risk I would not wish to take with a non-breeding female.

You know about two years ago I was in total support of mandatory speutering campaigns, but realizing I could possibly buy my Selli 5 years of life by keeping her intact, I quickly changed my mind.  Does it mean I have to keep a close eye on her and deal with the mess of her heat, yes but I am glad to do it.

My choice may not be for everyone, and if people chose to speuter, that is their choice, but I think people should have all the relevant information.

Chuffy and Benedict, is it true that there is not the pet overpopulation in GB that there is in the US?  And, is it true that many if not most dogs in GB are intact?  What is the secret? 

And not to seem glib, but if there is an accident, there is a morning after pill for dogs. 

GoldenAC

Chuffy and Benedict, is it true that there is not the pet overpopulation in GB that there is in the US?  And, is it true that many if not most dogs in GB are intact?  What is the secret? 

 

Yes, it is true.  We have shelters full of animals but not NEARLY on the same scale.  Strays are extremely rare...there are media spotlights on puppy farms/puppy mills.   I can't remember or find the exact numbers, but 2 years ago my local shelter took in about 10,000 animals over 12 months, from dogs to cats to birds to rabbits to guinea pigs...and rehomed all but about 330 of them. 

I wouldn't say most dogs are intact...I would say many are.  I don't know anyone, personally, who has had an unexpected/unplanned litter.  

KarissaKS

If Kaiser doesn't have a future as a breeding stud, he will be neutered because that is what I feel is appropriate. 

This is kind of the thing I am arguing against - this "speutering of all non breeding animals".  I have found that blanket answers are seldom accurate or realistic.

KarissaKS

It is my opinion that neutered dogs are easier to care for -- if Kaiser is neutered I won't have to keep asking everyone if their female dog he is playing with is spayed. 

This seems like a very minor thing, and if keeping dogs intact were the norm, it would not be considered a problem.  It would simply be part and parcel of keeping a dog.  Besides which, most resposnible pet owners I know don't let their dogs go up and play with random other dogs.  Whether they are speutered or not aside, are they UTD on vax?  Do they have fleas, or worms?  Are they friendly?  What is their playstyle?  I don't plan on letting my kid randomly play with any kid he meets when we go out, same for my dog.  Hence this argument seems a rather weak one.

KarissaKS

I just see absolutely no reason to keep him intact if he's not breeding.

And I see no reason to neuter a dog who is well trained, properly contained and properly cared for - like yours seems to be.  While I would be relieved if certain people I know speutered their dogs, I don't see a reason for it to be appropriate in YOUR situation.  At best, there will be precisely no change in the dog, his health, behaviour, temperament and his relationship with his pack mate.  At worst, it may have adverse effects.  It MIGHT prevent some cancers - but then again, it may cause others.  Besides, to borrow from the anti-docking brigade: we don't chop our dogs legs off in case they break them. 

KarissaKS

Pyometria is a very real problem in the Klee Kai world and I know of many breeders who have lost, or nearly lost, their bitches to this infection.  It is most definitely a risk I would not wish to take with a non-breeding female.

This is a good reason to spay IMO - but if it were me I would look at the lines the bitch came from and still weigh the decision carefully.  As I said before, I dislike blanket decisions, because I think they can stop you from seeing the dog in front of you, so to speak.  I truly believe it should be a case-by-case thing.  I would also hope that the breeders were looking at ways to eliminate this problem from their breed.

KarissaKS

If Kaiser doesn't have a future as a breeding stud, he will be neutered because that is what I feel is appropriate.  I firmly believe in spaying and neutering all non-breeding and non-showing dogs once they have reached age of maturity.  I don't view the neutering procedure to be invasive or dangerous to the average dog -- although I will grant you that it does tend to be harder on the older dogs, as they don't heal as quickly as the young pups.

 You don't consider removing organs to be invasive? Is there any surgery you do feel is invasive?

 I can't imagine neutering my boy dog - I like him too much just the way he is :) 

pudel

Benedict

So it's better not to try to educate them about puppy mills, sit back while they get their dog and funnel cash into the puppy mill system, and then proclaim that neutering is the answer to all evils?  

 How exactly do you advocate educating them?  And better yet, reaching them before they make their purchase?

 How was the public brainwashed into thinking that the only repsonsible thing is to have your animals spayed/neutered? Funny thing is, the people who are the main problem that people are using as examples of "average owners" - the most ignorant of ignorant are not the people who are going to have their pet altered anyway.

 Actually, stricter enforcement of exsisting leash laws would actually go a long way in "educating" such people (and preventing unwanted breedings). Instead, people seem to think there is a need for "more laws" and "stronger push for S/N". Of course, the organizations which are behind such things want to see an end to ALL pets and enforcing leash laws doesn't really help further their agenda. But who needs to worry about silly things like that?

 Georgia Black Dogs are very sad. Most of them have fantastic temperaments, and maybe *one* issue, that would be resolved by basic training. Nobody wants a big, black dog, though.

Ena plays with intact dogs, all the time. Why is that a problem? Her best two buddies are an intact Chihuahua and an intact Chinese Crested, both males. Both of my dogs socialize with both intact and altered dogs on a regular basis.

jennie_c_d

Georgia Black Dogs are very sad. Most of them have fantastic temperaments, and maybe *one* issue, that would be resolved by basic training. Nobody wants a big, black dog, though.

Well, except me!

 Of course! The people who do get them usually end up REALLY REALLY glad. Big, black dogs are great. I think people are scared of them, or maybe of thier past.

I have a side question - in AKC or UKC, can you "finish" a puppy? 

I plan to show Nikon in UKC on the side, but mainly the "sieger" type shows for GSDs.  In these shows there are no "points" or "championship".  For puppies the highest rating is VP.  For young dogs the highest rating is SG.  For adults without progeny the highest rating is V and for adults that have been shown pretty extensively and have proven themselves with progeny is VA.  So basically, I can't *know* whether Nikon is an it dog until he is at least 2 years old, because he has to be 2 to be in the working class to be elligable for a V rating.  And I figure, if I can raise him 2+ years, title him (certain titles are required for this class), and show him as an adult before I decide whether to breed and/or keep showing for a VA (yeah right but we can dream...), then I might as well just keep him intact.