Spinoff: Intact males and aggression

 OK I did not closely read all the posts but feel I can add my two cents in a couple of areas -

1 - dog culture in the UK IS different than in the US.  Just the fact that by and large the vast majority of homes in the UK haved very small yards and are fully privacy fenced (my experience in my 7 yrs there) and dogs therefore MUST be taken out and about so are better socialized and certain behaviors are much better instilled. (although I've seen some doozies on Its me or the dog LOL).

In the US you have many, many rural areas where dogs are just sort of part of the landscape.  They never get truly socialized outside their yards or families and many dogs are purely 'outside' dogs.  Yards can be huge and aren't fenced because it is too costly or not feasible etc. I am not defending this approach to dog ownership just stating what I have seen.

My point is that in the UK dogs are much better contained because it is easier and the culture is to do so.  In so much of the still wide open US it is not the culture to contain your dog.  

This is clear in the massive dog overpopulation problem which is very obviously not created by spayed and neutered dogs. I recall that there was a horrendous cat overpopulation issue in the UK, which I certainly was painfully aware of everytime I tended to my gardens.

In the US I feel strongly that for the average and less than average owner it is essential to get their dog spayed/neutered.  If all owners were responsible I would say otherwise.  But things I see here in NC have convinced me that owners aren't responsible.  In 2007 250,000 animals were euthanized in NC.  I fear what that number would be if there wasn't a spay/neuter campaign.

I am not in a position to discuss whether males are more or less apt to fight if intact.  I will say that humping and mounting behavior doesn't seem terribly related to being intact or not as most of the dogs I've seen doing this are altered (male and female)

Three dogs have tried to mount Bugsy only one was not in a play situation and B kept all three of them off without a growl or snarl.  One was a small BC and B had other dogs around so paid him no mind.  One was my friend's intact male lab who stayed with us for a few days and they were having a blast seeing who was top dog in wrestling.  And one was just ridiculous, a male belgian shepherd and a female greyhound who were packmates (and both altered) doubled up on B with the greyhound biting at his neck and the tervuren trying mount him.  It sucked and I was pissed as the owner just watched.  I broke it up immediately and let hte owner know his dogs weren't 'cool' and he leashed them and left.  It appeared that the owner wanted them to do what they did which peeved me.  Still does.

B has never tried to mount a male or female.  He also has never growled or snarled at any dog.  I cannot be sure whether this is to do with him being neutered so young or if that is of no relevance.   With him dogs seem to be naturally submissive. 

anyway that is my two cents

I don't think that having balls makes males naturally more aggressive but overall think neutering is best for non-breeders and non-show dogs

kpwlee

In the US I feel strongly that for the average and less than average owner it is essential to get their dog spayed/neutered.  If all owners were responsible I would say otherwise.  But things I see here in NC have convinced me that owners aren't responsible.  In 2007 250,000 animals were euthanized in NC.  I fear what that number would be if there wasn't a spay/neuter campaign.

This is speculation only, and therefore pretty much worthless, BUT - I'd say the number would not be THAT much different.  Because the caring people who are affected by the campaign, who take note of the advice and get the op done.... they are ALSO taking care of the dog anyway.  They love the dog and are not letting him out to roam the streets or what not.  People on the other end of the spectrum, the people who "don't bother" with the dog... don't bother to train him or contain him - well they probably aren't going to neuter him either. 

Sure, spayed and neutered dogs are not adding to the population issue.  But for the most part, dogs that are contained and generally "bothered with" aren't adding to it either.

I honestly think energy would be better spent on a campaign for better awareness of responsible pet ownership... which neutering may or may not be a part of.  Far more important is where to buy the pup FROM (lets squeeze out the millers) and the level of COMMITMENT required.  Let's face it, it's mostly not puppies that are the problem.  Puppies have homes.  People tend to have allergies to untrained adolescents, just grown out of "that cute stage" but strangely, not grown out of inappropriate biting or toilet habits....

kpwlee

This is clear in the massive dog overpopulation problem which is very obviously not created by spayed and neutered dogs.

 Are you sure about that?

AgileGSD

kpwlee

This is clear in the massive dog overpopulation problem which is very obviously not created by spayed and neutered dogs.

 Are you sure about that?

Pretty sure as sterile animals are just that - sterile.

Chuffy I will agree to disagree.  When you live in NC for a while you may see a different picture than you do now (and I know you have no intention of moving - my point is that I have lived in the UK for 7 years a long enough time to assess the differences).  I would say that the minority of dog owners here would fit your or my definition of responsible owners.  And the culture of dog ownership is totally different too.  I was talking to someone once who said well what is the big deal if your dog has or makes pups.  Sell 'em.  You cannot drive 10 minutes without seeing a pups for sale sign.  The paper (broadsheet) has a page and half of ads 2x a week selling pups as young as 5 wks and pretty much 6wk old pups are the norm.  Lately with the economic issues there are at least 2-3 ads saying "all must go" or "clearance" on puppies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   The shelters are full of puppies AND adults.

There are areas of the US where the problem isn't as bad, like the Northeast, which now ships pups from southern states in to shelters.  Why is it better?  They have more suburban areas = better contained dogs, dogs are pets not livestock, they started the spay/neuter campaign decades ago, are few of the reasons.

I love my mutt and understand that if there weren't intact dogs copulating he wouldn't exist.  I have no issue with responsible dog owners leaving their dogs intact but the other 90% (or more) should take oops litters out of the equation and take an urge to mate their dog 'cuz its a real good dawg out of their hands.

I get your point that "fear" of handling a dog is not, of itself, a good reason for neutering. But the discussion expanded to other aspects of handling, not jus aggression issues.

 I thought Kate meant "fear that you can't handle the dog" - not fear of the dog himself, that he will cause actual harm.  I could be wrong, but those were the lines I was thinking along.

ron2

I get your point that "fear" of handling a dog is not, of itself, a good reason for neutering. But the discussion expanded to other aspects of handling, not jus aggression issues.

Yes, but this thread was only ever intended to discuss the aggression aspect, we all did go off on tangents, myself included, and everything discussed does have a bearing on this.  Nevertheless, I was never arguing for a single second that neutering does not often curb OTHER antisocial behaviours, nor do I think that neutering is not a good idea for most pet dogs.  My original (and only) intention was to delve into the idea that intact dogs are always inherently more aggressive, regardless of training or environment or breeding, or whether those things can have a significant, or even total, impact on preventing a particular intact dog from ever displaying any aggression.  Chuffy is right, though, in that I meant "fear that you can't handle the intact dog" - which may sometimes extend to being afraid of the dog itself, but that wasn't my point.  

Chuffy

This is speculation only, and therefore pretty much worthless

So, you are saying that her statements are worthless?

I think the cultural distinctions are relevant.

I think it's possible that some dogs would be aggressive, neutered or not. And that such a problem is not a reason to reject neutering. Such a problem indicates a problem that was exacerbated by the procedure. 

I've also noticed that the people that work in shelters have been largely silent, probably because they don't want their statements or viewpoints seen as worthless. The shelter workers I do know believe in spay/neuter. In fact, the op is part of the requirements of the adoption process. They don't give a flip, in my opinion about the other effects or risks of neuter. They would simply like to see less dogs coming in. But it's like whispering into the wind. A number of people believe in keeping intact pets, whether they are good at it, or not.

ron2

I've also noticed that the people that work in shelters have been largely silent, probably because they don't want their statements or viewpoints seen as worthless. The shelter workers I do know believe in spay/neuter. In fact, the op is part of the requirements of the adoption process. They don't give a flip, in my opinion about the other effects or risks of neuter. They would simply like to see less dogs coming in. But it's like whispering into the wind. A number of people believe in keeping intact pets, whether they are good at it, or not.

 The reason that heavily promoting neutering hasn't helped with incoming shelter dogs is because it isn't addressing the real problem. There is not an "overpopulation" in the way that AR groups would like us to believe (but the idea sure does keep the donations coming in and helps get those MSN laws passed). In most shelters which actually make an honest effort to place dogs, puppies are generally extremely easy to place. In some places, puppies are brought in from other states or other countries because of the demand for them. The problem is generally owners giving up "teenage" and older dogs. This is due most often to lack of planning when they got the dog (the dog got too big, they're moving, etc) or behavioral issues (even common ones such as chewing, barking, housetraining, jumping up).

 Shelters which address the behavioral reasons by offering behavior counseling often find that the people are willing to keep their dog, if they can get the problem under control. I used to do such behavior counseling at a local shelter and it did result in many dogs who would have otherwise been surrended keeping their homes. The other key point such counseling helped with was keeping adopted dogs with their new owners by offering advice on how to get a good start and offering training and management tips for any behavior issues the dog may have.

ron2

Chuffy

This is speculation only, and therefore pretty much worthless

So, you are saying that her statements are worthless?

No, I was saying MINE were   Woah, get down off that horse before you hurt yourself!

Chuffy

No, I was saying MINE were   Woah, get down off that horse before you hurt yourself!

Sorry, I must have misunderstood. Right now, I can't feel if I hurt myself. I've been assembling light poles in the arctic blast we've had to day. Once I thaw out, I'll see if I have injuries.

AgileGSD

The reason that heavily promoting neutering hasn't helped with incoming shelter dogs is because it isn't addressing the real problem. There is not an "overpopulation" in the way that AR groups would like us to believe (but the idea sure does keep the donations coming in and helps get those MSN laws passed). In most shelters which actually make an honest effort to place dogs, puppies are generally extremely easy to place. In some places, puppies are brought in from other states or other countries because of the demand for them. The problem is generally owners giving up "teenage" and older dogs. This is due most often to lack of planning when they got the dog (the dog got too big, they're moving, etc) or behavioral issues (even common ones such as chewing, barking, housetraining, jumping up).

 Shelters which address the behavioral reasons by offering behavior counseling often find that the people are willing to keep their dog, if they can get the problem under control. I used to do such behavior counseling at a local shelter and it did result in many dogs who would have otherwise been surrended keeping their homes. The other key point such counseling helped with was keeping adopted dogs with their new owners by offering advice on how to get a good start and offering training and management tips for any behavior issues the dog may have

Excellent post. You make a good point and stated it well.

I don't think our local shelter has a counselor and neither could they afford one. They still accept donations of food, towels, blankets because that's one less thing that has to come out of the budget that pays their wages. They definitely accept pet carriers.

Your post makes me want to talk to the one ACO I always see around town and at the mobile adoption thing they do at Petco. He's the one in the trenches. Picking up strays, handling surrenders, operating the mobile adoption. He's got a Lab that likes to eat cotton rats, too. Why? Because, like me, he has to go out of the house to work and the dog will be in the backyard. Where cotton rats run through. This is a rural county of farmland and ranches. Where other dogs get out. Where people let their dogs run loose, sometimes, on purpose. Sometimes, because they can't afford a fence. I think it might be a cultural difference, even within our own country.

Here's some training for ya. The next door neighbor on our south has a Mini Schnauzer and a hound mix. The hound has her CGC. And likes to have barking fits with Shadow (I think it's how they get their exercise. I've never seen them walk her.) She gets out over a six foot fence and Shadow has yet to get out of our 4 foot fence. They added some to their fence and evidently she thinks 7 feet is too much. How else do you contain this CGC hound adopted from the shelter? Tether her? Kennel with just enough room to turn around and poop? However, she can't get pregnant, even if she does get out of the yard. Yes, spaying does not keep her from getting out of the yard. It does keep her from getting a litter. And if she didn't have this house, she would be dead, for our local shelter is a kill shelter with a 7 day schedule. Snip or die in seven days? The snip theoretically in a world where anything can happen might cause her problems at 10 years of age? Or, 7 days brings the end of days.

ron2

I don't think our local shelter has a counselor and neither could they afford one. They still accept donations of food, towels, blankets because that's one less thing that has to come out of the budget that pays their wages. They definitely accept pet carriers.

 Usually such things are done on a volunteer basis or in exchange for the shelter including the trainer's info with all dogs adopted out.

ron2

Your post makes me want to talk to the one ACO I always see around town and at the mobile adoption thing they do at Petco. He's the one in the trenches. Picking up strays, handling surrenders, operating the mobile adoption. He's got a Lab that likes to eat cotton rats, too. Why? Because, like me, he has to go out of the house to work and the dog will be in the backyard. Where cotton rats run through. This is a rural county of farmland and ranches. Where other dogs get out. Where people let their dogs run loose, sometimes, on purpose. Sometimes, because they can't afford a fence. I think it might be a cultural difference, even within our own country.

 While I find Sue Sternberg to be a bit kill happy (her temperament test isn't bad itself but she feels everything but the softest, most submissive dogs are "unadoptable";) her Training Wheels program is a solution to these issues. http://www.suesternberg.com/00wheels.html

ron2

Here's some training for ya. The next door neighbor on our south has a Mini Schnauzer and a hound mix. The hound has her CGC. And likes to have barking fits with Shadow (I think it's how they get their exercise. I've never seen them walk her.) She gets out over a six foot fence and Shadow has yet to get out of our 4 foot fence. They added some to their fence and evidently she thinks 7 feet is too much. How else do you contain this CGC hound adopted from the shelter? Tether her? Kennel with just enough room to turn around and poop? However, she can't get pregnant, even if she does get out of the yard. Yes, spaying does not keep her from getting out of the yard. It does keep her from getting a litter. And if she didn't have this house, she would be dead, for our local shelter is a kill shelter with a 7 day schedule. Snip or die in seven days? The snip theoretically in a world where anything can happen might cause her problems at 10 years of age? Or, 7 days brings the end of days.

 Well we can all guess how this dog may have ended up at the shelter ;)

 There are several options for fence jumpers and none are very difficult.

 They could install an electric fence around the inside of the yard, near the fence. The dog would learn pretty quickly that trying to jump the fence gets her zapped. Most dogs won't test this more than a few times. Alternatively, an underground fence/collar can be used and the wire attached to the fence instead of buried underground.

 They could build an additional barrier to the existing fence, such as a top "shelf" that is pointed into the yard at an angle.

 They could tie the dog up in the yard with a regular tie out or trolley cable line, short enough that she can't get to the fence.

 They could try walking the dog, to satiate the appetite to walk, sniff and explore.  It's a million to one chance, but it might just work.

I draw exception to electrifying the fence. Their fence adjoins ours. The part she has jumped over is wood, running from my fence corner to their house. I am an electrician. I've been shocked a number of times and I don't plan to shock my pet and I'm not all that fond of shocking other pets, either. I would approach it as you would speuter. Other ideas could be used. And Chuffy, I know you were being cheeky, but your sentiment is correct and is also why I included that info. Perhaps getting more exercise would help. The next door neighbors are the original owner of the house, his son, and his son's wife. The daughter-in-law is a nurse. The son works at some job for at least 8 hours. And the homeowner is retired, a widower, and has enough energy to walk around the house to get coffee or go to the bathroom. To give you an idea of how old, he is 85, Navy SP, WWII. So, I'm not sure they've scheduled the time wisely to walk the dog. I know the trainer they use and I'm sure they've been advised as to walking her as part of life enrichment, attitude adjustment, what-have-you. They did make the fence taller and that seems to work, for now. In some places, not here, you can keep your dog tied out for only so long.

So, possibly, by your definitions of animal containment, they shouldn't have her. OTOH, she hasn't gotten out in a while so maybe they are finally containing her successfully. I don't want my point about a CGC dog getting out to get ignored. She's had more formal training in a class than Shadow has had, which is none. She could easily get over the 4 foot fence my neighbors and I share. Perhaps she just likes hashing it out with Shadow through the fence. What if she did get over the fence? And Shadow had liked her enough to try and tie? Shadow's not tethered or kenneled. He has free run of the backyard. Go ahead, call me a bad or irresponsible owner.

I realize that your mind is set, regardless of how many times I explain the realities involved in this neck of the woods. We're hashing our points out back and forth and that's fine. And my neighbors are average people. There's not enough of you to go around, sadly enough. And this is the optimum solution for the situation.