Spinoff: Intact males and aggression

I actually think that they are more likely to BE attacked yes. Because of their scent and all that goes with it. Neutered males smell like bitches to a great extent I think and other males just flat out don't seem to count them as worth a bother.

But even the nicest of dogs...having testicles...will sometimes be groused at by other dogs. Either by bitches that can be inherently stand offish with males when not in season, and some even afraid of unaltered males...or by other males even if they themselves are neutered.

It's something I have experienced myself...male dogs do not always have anything nasty to say to anyone...but they find themselves targeted nonetheless, at times.

rwbeagles

Neutered males smell like bitches to a great extent I think

I'm sure Ben does, let's just say there isn't a dog on the park who hasn't tried to mount him even if it needed a ladder to do so.  It's not a dominance thing, that much I know from body language and behaviour on the parts of both dogs - 2 of them are the most submissive dogs I have EVER seen and they've tried to mount Ben.  My poor picked on dog LOL.  

Anyway...all that is very interesting Gina, thanks.  

rwbeagles

I actually think that they are more likely to BE attacked yes. Because of their scent and all that goes with it. Neutered males smell like bitches to a great extent I think and other males just flat out don't seem to count them as worth a bother.

I heard Ian Dunbar make this statement a few years ago at a seminar.  I didn't get a chance to ask him later to expand but am wondering if you or anyone else can give me the reason for this belief. In the same seminar Dunbar talked about male hormones being present at birth and actually in the womb. 

Benedict

 

Are intact dogs really inherently at a high risk of being aggressive simply because they are still intact?  Because I know breeders (some of very guardy breeds) who have little to no problems, even in breeds known to have problems between 2 males of the same breed.

Personally, I don't think so.  Nikon's breeder prefers her males to be left intact, and if they're going to be neutered, for it to be done after at least 18 months.  She gets her dogs from Europe and goes there frequently for shows and dog-related events.  She says it's much more normal there to leave animals intact.  Here, it seems that if you say "yes" you are automatically labeled as someone who wants to breed your dog.  I see no reason TO do it, so I have no plans to.

In October I went to the North American Sieger Show, which featured nearly 500 German shepherd dogs from around the world, all intact, all in training or trained and titled in Schutzhund.  I watched almost every minute of the show.  The only times I saw any dogs getting snarky were 1) During the protection test a few people were warming up their dogs off to the side with their own helper and had two dogs getting all revved up in each other's personal space.  Actually I'm pretty sure these were bitches.  2)  I watched a lot of the show from the middle of the ring since I was asked to do photography (stacked photos) and one time I saw another dog turn and snap at the dog behind him/her.  There was no actual bite, it did not escalate, and these shows are known for packing 40+ dogs in a single ring so they literally are running up onto each other if the handler is not careful.  I attributed that snap to the dog's handler not paying attention (the handler of the dog to the rear, not the one that snapped).

Really interesting thread....

My first dog (a male) got MORE aggressive post-neuter, which was done on the advice of my vet to prevent cancer and "make him friendly to other dogs" because "he is just full of testosterone".  I've since learned that most vets are not behavioural professionals and some of them probably know even less than I do on that score. 

A lot of times, problems come down to lack of training.  People expect problems and their expectations shape their reality.  Problems arise and then they think can't do anything about it (other than neuter) "because it's hormonal". 

I do think that neutering can help avoid some "problems", but I don't think it has to be the solution.  Also I think timing is important.  Coke was neutered very young, before we got him.  He has never, ever lifted his leg or marked in any fashion.  Possibly this is because he was neutered so young.  However, a lot of neutered dogs still mark an absurd amount, and even an intact dog can be trained not to constantly mark.

You can get a dog de-barked, or you can teach it not to bark.

Liesje

I do think that neutering can help avoid some "problems"

So do I, and I neutered Ben to avoid such problems.  Had I been, perhaps, more knowledgeable or experienced, I would have had the tools to manage the behaviour another way.  In Ben's case it wasn't aggression, at all, just a severe interest in the ladies that it felt a bit pointless to manage since I knew he was never going to be bred.  I feel vastly more confident now and would approach things differently, and likely will in the future.  

I'm not saying that everyone should keep their dogs intact, far from it.  Nor am I saying that there's no reason why intact dogs would ever fight.  I just think there is a LOT more at play here than simply hormones.  If intact dogs were really THAT hard to manage there wouldn't be so many of them parading around show rings.   Many of the show dogs I know are also the most well socialised dogs I know, so they're not just being kept penned up at home to avoid situations where there might be fights.

I just think that as with many issues, dog related or not, it can't be put down to just ONE factor and doing so really doesn't make for a solution that works for everyone and every dog.  

rwbeagles

I actually think that they are more likely to BE attacked yes. Because of their scent and all that goes with it. Neutered males smell like bitches to a great extent I think and other males just flat out don't seem to count them as worth a bother.

But even the nicest of dogs...having testicles...will sometimes be groused at by other dogs. Either by bitches that can be inherently stand offish with males when not in season, and some even afraid of unaltered males...or by other males even if they themselves are neutered.

It's something I have experienced myself...male dogs do not always have anything nasty to say to anyone...but they find themselves targeted nonetheless, at times.

 YES!!!! I noticed this with Logan.  He gets the brunt of other (often nuetered) males aggression... I thought it might be because he's still "puppy" the obnoxious teenage years at that.  But, I have started to wonder if it had more to do with him being intact.  Cause it happens fairly regularly.  He's super friendly, reads other dogs body language well, super socialized... LOVES other dogs but won't approach if the dog is giving off 'don't bother me' language and he's quite submissive, so I thought it was weird he was getting targeted.  So much so, in fact, I stopped going to dog parks. He was attacked (where the other dog made him bleed) twice.  I didn't like the risk.

In a weird way I'm glad to read it's normal, apparently.

call it testicle envy

rwbeagles

call it testicle envy

LMAO.  

 That is amusing.... I didn't even think about neutered males smelling like bitches.

Emma was spayed very, very early (8 wks). She is, as I type, trying to breed Ena (who is in season). In a minute, I'll go separate them, but I'm hoping that Ena will snark at her. Ena needs to learn to snark. Emma mounts bitches in season, and she mounts when she's feeling insecure. Perhaps the dogs mounting Ben are feeling insecure? When we were away at the last dog show, Emma got to feeling unsure, and started humping the "puppies" in the trailer.

rwbeagles

call it testicle envy

LOL!!! I started to type (in my first post) that I call it ... erm, something similar... you worded it MUCH better than I do!

If I got your point , and that is up for grabs today!! I would honestly say after nearly 3 decades in the same breed and over 2 decades in other breeds this is my take.

I want my males to have a chance to develop physically fully BEFORE the neutering. A male , in Ridgebacks, snipped very early will not develop the same way. Their chest has not dropped or broadened,  the head may not have begun to widen and showing the masculine adult head. Being really into head pieces I am not fond of bitchy heads on a male.  The testosterone is needed for this process.  But I caution my puppy owners and my family knows this rule like many would be able to quote the Bible, Dogs going through this "teen aged" stage can very easily become aggressive.  They can trigger a fight by simply staring at another older and most likely proven male. They don't IMO, always know they will trigger a fight, they just become intense.  Once a fight or aggressive response happens they begin to view the world in an entirely new way.  Next time they may react first, because they do not want to be the one off guard.  Or they may , if a very puppy like mentality think the rowdy response is a new game.

In our home we have both intact and altered males. with both intact and altered females. My neutered males rarely get worked up when a girl is in season. They may be a tad more cautious about making eye contact but they seem to know the boys with jewels still attached can be unpredictable. What was their best friend the day before is now some how competition. And an intact male is likely to howl and bell, whine and croon for hours on end, losing weight and not being able to focus because they are in hormone overdrive.  We insist the family ups their game. If a puppy family is unsure they can manage I will happily take the male or female back in my home. (Weather I bred that particular dog  or not ) they stay with me for the duration of the season to assure the dog is safe, the family has a welcomed respite and there are minimal chances that an accident will happen. My track record is pretty darn good when it comes to avoiding fights or accidental breeding and I do not take this for granted. If a family is not sure they can handle things, hey I am happy to help out , allowing the dog, male or female to finish maturing safely. Then if they need help rehabbing after the "alteration" again I am happy to help.

I think many of us feel it is far easier to prevent creating an aggressive dog than to try to fix one who has gotten into a fight.

If a puppy from my kennel is not going in the ring and being finished I begin my campaign to have it altered as soon as we know. I want the dog to grow up and be happy and safe. I know they liked my mature male and understand the look they planned on having for life. But as I assure them those little bits and pieces can cause many problems they just do not want, from a change in personality to prostate cancer...  Same for my little girls , you wanted a princess not a mess, and most owners handle one season as per our contract and then rush to the vet to rid themselves of that complicated and seemingly endless chore.  Plus I send them regular updates from RR Rescue about people not smart or caring enough to protect their baby girl... and notes about mammary tumors and cancers etc..

I think you have a small window with every dog that may change the relationship forever.  But Yes there are dummies who think the dog's dangly bits represent their own manhood somehow ??  And they engineer a negative outcome just about everytime.

Bonita of Bwana

 I certainly wouldn't blame all the worlds fights on testostrone, but it is has been proven across the board in all types of critters that aggression is one of the byproducts of testosterone.  In the game of love, the males with more testostrone are often larger, more ampped up, and thus more fit to defend their kills, terrortry, and go on to win the ladies.  I wouldn't say that castrated males smell like bitches, but that they are more like prepubressant animals.  They lack the scent of teststerone and thus the unmistakable smell of competition.  They can't successfully breed and often lack the desire to even go through the motions.  This can also be seen in other animals, like Tom cats who will widly ignore nutered males with overlapping terrortories.  There is no point whasting energy on them.