Spinoff: Intact males and aggression

ron2

So, possibly, by your definitions of animal containment, they shouldn't have her.

If someone as refusing to feed their dog, the dog would be taken away.

Unfortunately, the same priority is not allocated to walking... perhaps it should be....

One story to share:

A friend had a dog on co-owner ship with the breeder. The dog was intact and started getting aggressive as he hit 18 months old. They worked with a trainer, did everything right, and decided to fix him because his temperament wasn't suitable for breeding. Low and behold he is back to his happy, sweet, great with other dogs self, and the owner reports it started getting better after the neuter.

In his case, it is clear that the neuter helped. While I don't think all aggression can be diminished with neutering, it seems like a great place to start when a dog starts getting aggressive and all other channels have been explored (health, fear, etc.).

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

In his case, it is clear that the neuter helped. While I don't think all aggression can be diminished with neutering, it seems like a great place to start when a dog starts getting aggressive and all other channels have been explored (health, fear, etc.).

 I agree with you there completely, but I think some people treat it as a FIRST option, not as a last one, and not necessarily after other options and considerations have been explored.  Also, it doesn't mean that ALL male dogs will turn out this way if not neutered. 

"Started getting aggressive" is a rather vague term.  It could mean anything from growling at the postman to attempting to rip a child's arm off.

Yes, agreed. Not all intact males are going to be aggressive. I personally, don't have a problem with the first step being neutering, since I wouldn't want any dog passing on a genetic source for aggression so the snip would eliminate that possibility. But I would also want the dog to get the rest of the vet care and training it needs, to be sure the reason for the aggression is being found and resolved.

For those interested, the dog I mentioned above was getting very aggressive with other dogs in a way the breeder and owner felt did not meet the standards for breeding.

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

Yes, agreed. Not all intact males are going to be aggressive. I personally, don't have a problem with the first step being neutering, since I wouldn't want any dog passing on a genetic source for aggression so the snip would eliminate that possibility. But I would also want the dog to get the rest of the vet care and training it needs, to be sure the reason for the aggression is being found and resolved.

For those interested, the dog I mentioned above was getting very aggressive with other dogs in a way the breeder and owner felt did not meet the standards for breeding.

And thank you for sharing perspective. I think each case should be examined but I also wonder if a dog gets worse after neutering, is there not a problem with the dog that coincides with that neutering, such as adolescence, other hormones changing besides just testosterone? It might be too much hay made to say that neuter always cures aggression but might also be another bale of hay to assume that neuter causes aggression, as well?

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

One story to share:

A friend had a dog on co-owner ship with the breeder. The dog was intact and started getting aggressive as he hit 18 months old. They worked with a trainer, did everything right, and decided to fix him because his temperament wasn't suitable for breeding. Low and behold he is back to his happy, sweet, great with other dogs self, and the owner reports it started getting better after the neuter.

In his case, it is clear that the neuter helped. While I don't think all aggression can be diminished with neutering, it seems like a great place to start when a dog starts getting aggressive and all other channels have been explored (health, fear, etc.).

 IME some dogs have hormonal imbalances and with males such things can be helped with neutering. I knew a male dog who was extremely macho, more so than any male I have ever known. He was very seriously aggressive with some other males and would mount all other dogs so forcefully that it was hard to stop him once he started. He had other issues which I would blame on an excess of hormones as well but won't discuss here ;) He was bred and produced a bitch who was abnormally aggressive in ways too but she seemed to get worse with spaying. Once the male was neutered he acted like a perfectly normal dog. I personally would not use a male like that for breeding and it is a case where neutering may be the best solution. IME and IMO such males are abnormal and not something I'd want to pass on to future generations. It sounds like the above dog's breeder felt the same way.

Certainly not all male intact dogs will be aggressive, and some will never invite attack either.  But, of the ones that are aggressive, neutering seems to help.  Oddly, spaying a bitch often has no effect on aggressive behavior.  IME, most people don't neuter because they want to stave off aggression, they do it to avoid unwanted litters, or to prevent urine-marking.  Another little factoid about intact dogs is that once they start marking, neutering can put an end to it, but that is not a given.  Some dogs mark all their lives, testicles departed or not.

spiritdogs

IME, most people don't neuter because they want to stave off aggression, they do it to avoid unwanted litters, or to prevent urine-marking.  Another

The point I keep trying to make.

Let's say a dog is aggressive, even just a little. And neuter changes him for the worse, somehow. Then, it was definitely right to neuter, because now you have prevented him from siring with his messed up genes ever, whether you (in general) are properly containing him or not. Why is that important? He might have been fine intact and neutering made him "worse." Well, even the best plans can go wrong and no one is 100 % perfect and that dog may sire a litter of even more pups who should be neutered, only that reaction will be times 2 or 3, as he has passed his genetic fault of aggression on.

ron2

spiritdogs

IME, most people don't neuter because they want to stave off aggression, they do it to avoid unwanted litters, or to prevent urine-marking.  Another

The point I keep trying to make.

And it's not that anyone is MISSING that point - I just disagree with it

ron2

Let's say a dog is aggressive, even just a little. And neuter changes him for the worse, somehow. Then, it was definitely right to neuter

I have BEEN there and I can tell you that my dog almost killed another dog post-neuter and I almost had him put down!  Neutering him was NOT the correct choice for him.  Nor do I think it was his "screwed up genetics", but rather some bad experiences in puppyhood that triggered the onset of the aggression. 

Let us not forget that ALL of us, dog, human, male, female, speutered or not - we ALL have the capacity to be aggressive.

If neutering can (and does IME) make a dog MORE aggressive then to answer Kate directly, no I don't think all intact males are inherently more aggressive than neutered ones.

Chuffy

have BEEN there and I can tell you that my dog almost killed another dog post-neuter and I almost had him put down!  Neutering him was NOT the correct choice for him.  Nor do I think it was his "screwed up genetics", but rather some bad experiences in puppyhood that triggered the onset of the aggression. 

In this statement, you think, and probably are correct in your thinking and I certainly agree with it, that your dog's aggression stems from bad experiences in puppyhood. Which means that neutering had nothing to do with it. Personality did, and I think age did, too. I'm just not seeing the link between neutering and increased aggression other than coincidence.

Chuffy

Let us not forget that ALL of us, dog, human, male, female, speutered or not - we ALL have the capacity to be aggressive

Totally true, and therefore not related to speuter. The value of speuter is to avoid future litters, some medical conditions, and at least one bone of contention in aggression, mating rights. I support your right to not neuter the next dog you get. You are also above average. As Liesje's replies might point out, that may not take a whole to be above average, but there you are, rising skyward. You'll just have to accept that you are smarter than the average Joan. In fact, that's your assignment. To understand and accept that you have a few more brain-watts going than a lot of people.

ron2

In this statement, you think, and probably are correct in your thinking and I certainly agree with it, that your dog's aggression stems from bad experiences in puppyhood. Which means that neutering had nothing to do with it. Personality did, and I think age did, too. I'm just not seeing the link between neutering and increased aggression other than coincidence.

I may have this wrong, but I believe Chuffy said in the early pages of this thread that the dog's aggression got worse because neutering removed every semblance of self-confidence the dog had, which made his fear aggression FAR worse.  

Benedict

may have this wrong, but I believe Chuffy said in the early pages of this thread that the dog's aggression got worse because neutering removed every semblance of self-confidence the dog had, which made his fear aggression FAR worse.

How does testosterone equal confidence. I can be angry, which may or may not be related to testosterone. That hormone is more responsible for my muscle mass and body hair. I have confidence, but that comes from training in several styles of martial arts and proficiency with weapons and guns. I encounter others one might say is full of testosterone and full of bluff and I ask them "What are you waiting on, Christmas?" My challenge doesn't come from testosterone but confidence in my ability to handle myself. Which comes from training. Your post assumes that the lack of testosterone leads to the lack of confidence, a pathology I haven't seen proven. And I don't think a dog thinks of his testicles the same way a human male does.

In fact, there's some thought that castration of violent sex offenders doesn't accomplish much because sexual assault is actually about power and not sex. That's why I prefer capital punishment for sex offenders. A bad egg is just a bad egg. Cull the rapists. But not everyone does it my way.

ron2

Your post assumes that the lack of testosterone leads to the lack of confidence, a pathology I haven't seen proven. And I don't think a dog thinks of his testicles the same way a human male does.

...MY post assumes nothing except that I believe Chuffy knows her dogs and can share on her opinions on such, the same as the rest of us.  

I'm sorry Ron, but I'm not the one making assumptions - several times now in these discussions you've attributed beliefs and motives to me which aren't correct, and which are clearly wrong to anyone reading my posts.  I'm happy to share my opinions - indeed, I started this thread and have welcomed all input on it, but I'd prefer that my opinions not be misrepresented.  If you're not sure of what I've said, or what I meant, please feel free to ask me to clarify.

ron2

I'm just not seeing the link between neutering and increased aggression other than coincidence.

It was fear based aggression, the reduction in testosterone led to a reduction in confidence and made the fear worse.  (Testosterone is the hormone that ordinarily gives males the confidence to take risks and dispute over resources.)  A theory only, but one that makes more sense than "just coincidence", IMO.

Post op, I saw many fear-based behaviour issues arise that were not present before.  Before hand, he had been, you might say, "full of spunk".  He'd have stood up to anything and anyone, despite his relatively small size.  Some may have labelled him "dominant".  He was certainly a challenge for me.   Some months after the op he became increasingly noise shy.... he hated fireworks, thunderstorms, raised voices.  He also developed a phobia of carrier bags (something he had always been happy to stick his nose in to see what they contained) and he would not stay in the room if I was changing the bed sheets, because the flapping and shaking of sheets frightened him.  He just wasn't "the same dog" after the op.

I think it's very sad that your experiences so far have led you to have such a low expectation of "average" dog owners.  Here in the UK, we must be very fortunate.