Help me avoid a shock collar!

DPU

spiritdogs

 

  IMO, countersurfing and garbage raiding are very typical behaviors for dog owners who continually train with food.

I have an Aussie who could jump a six foot fence, but never surfs the counters, and she was clicker trained with - you guessed it- about five tons of roast beef, cheese, tripe, chicken, salmon brownies, and Charley Bear treats.  The reason dogs counter surf is that they find something of interest there, and they get it.

Never or Nevered?  I would suspect that the countersurfing behavior had to be trained out.  But it doesn't matter, countersurfing doesn't happen at my house and I think the odds are great that it should since new dogs that come here haven't had the best of life or the best nutrition.  No explanation of this is offer and I would expect any knowledgeable dog person to have a ready answer instead of recommending a head-on conflict situation.

Well, since you think you are the only knowledgeable dog person on the subject of rescue, and now counter surfing, where's your detailed explanation?  Counter surfing never has to be trained out if you prevent it in the first place.  Don't leave your food out where the dog can't resist investigating.  Give the dog something different to do when in the kitchen area.  Teach the dog that his or her good stuff arrives when the butt or the paws are on the floor, not when the nose is up by the cupboards somewhere.  Some dogs just never do this, but someday, if you foster a lot of adolescent Labs, you will come across it.  Good luck. 

spiritdogs

Maybe.... .  

I remember a recent thread where you asked:

" ...the first question that many people ask is "How do I correct (name the bad behavior).  Or, how do I stop my dog from (name the bad behavior).

JMHO, but I wish they would ask how they should train the dog to do things right!!!  Most of the problems owners run into are because they didn't start training the dog early enough, don't really know how to train properly, and make all the common mistakes in managing issues like....."

And here you are recommending a correction device to train.  And here I am giving evidence that something I do in a purely positive way does not give rise to "bad behavior" and others are doing something to create the behavior in the dog.  What to think?  What to think?

 Well, again, thanks for your input, everyone.

DPU, thanks for your contributions, too, though I have to admit they weren't terribly helpful.  What I'm faced with in this situation is a dog that came to a new owner with countersurfing already ingrained. As in, somebody else had already given rise to this bad behavior - someone else had already created the behavior in the dog. So, much as we would like to turn back time and prevent this habit from ever surfacing, his new owner would really like to get it to stop, which is what everyone else was giving suggestions about. So DPU, if you can think of a purely positive way to curb this behavior, given as the dog is fed adequately, not trained with treats, and gets plenty of attention, I would quite sincerely love to hear your ideas. Otherwise, talk about "prevention" or critcism for "giving rise to the behavior" is not that helpful for this particular situation.

This is one major reason why people prefer to get dogs as puppies instead of as rescue adults - it's a lot easier to train a dog when you're working from scratch instead of trying to undo bad habits!

And, just for the record, the owner in question is a tremendous cook and makes everything from scratch on a daily basis. She remodeled her kitchen with extra counter space specifically in mind and probably has 50 or more square feet of surfaces that she's currently trying to keep immaculately clean and empty. (I'm bad at estimates, but it is a LOT, and everyone comments on it when visiting the house.) No bread dough left out to rise, no baked goods left out to cool, no food left cooking unsupervised on the stove, no bowl of fruit left out to ripen... she's doing her best, but it is a huge liftestyle disruption, which is the answer to the "Why is countersurfing such a big deal anyway?" question.

And here I am giving evidence that something I do in a purely positive way does not give rise to "bad behavior" and others are doing something to create the behavior in the dog.  What to think?  What to think

I suspect you don't really interpret your actions correctly. You're thinking that your feeding methods and bizarre refusal to reward dogs with food is preventing the counter-surfing, but maybe it's something else you do- like supervise the dogs closely when they first arrive? oh it couldn't possibly be that.

I'll just answer here, rather than each individual post. Statistically, you may have a special sample of dogs. You mentioned you get the rescues that are often diagnosed with behavior problems and it would seem, from your descriptions, they are diagnosed incorrectly. With the one exception, Paganini, and you had the wisdom to transfer her to a behaviorist. I believe you when you say the dogs in your house don't surf. That you can leave a food bag open or simply on the floor and they will leave it alone. When I have the 40 lb bag of food, it's too big for the plastic food container and it's only held closed with a plastic "chip clip." Shadow could grab that off with no problems and dig in. And doesn't. But if I left a steak on the counter, I would not bet on it being left alone. Part of "no conflict" is not leaving items that could be tempting in a spot where they can be gotten. All action will inherently have the chance for conflict. Recalling when the dog intially wanted to go elsewhere. Downing when the dog would rather stand and face the "conflict" with another dog. Learning to sit and wait for a pat on the neck when the dog would rather jump on you for a greeting. In order to train the dog with manners will create some "conflict" between the behavior we desire and what the dog would have chosen for himself, if not given any direction by us.

And yes, you are right, the aim should be to have situations and procedures that lead the dog by reward, whatever that reward is but not all dogs are born without the desire to surf, jump, investigate, appropriate and secure. But sometimes, punishment may happen. And all of us have admitted that using punishment may be necessary. IMO, the more environmental the punishment, the better. Why? Because it reduces conflict between us and the dog. If the dog associates the loud noise with touching the counter and you are not the visible cause, then the dog will leave it alone and not consider any part of it as linked to you. Reduction of conflict. Plus, the noise happens as the behavior is happening, faster than most any human can react. It happens with dog timing, so to speak.

I can concede that you've had fosters that won't surf as a rule. But I thnk you've mentioned that a dog will have a learning phase where they become used to your group of dogs. And as I could see from your video, Drizzle leads the way, benevolently, albeit. In fact, she will ignore your recall, if she sees fit. How much of a new dog learning what not to do is due to Drizzle heading it off at the pass? I'm not denying all of your experience but I do think that there are factors not account for by the simple act of just feeding and giving water.

OTOH, if your method works so wonderfully for fostered rescues and you wish for us to follow your method for our dogs, then that must mean that fostering dogs isn't so different from raising resident dogs. Which means, vice versa, the methods we may use with our resident dogs could be used for rescues and fosters, and, in fact, has been, by many a person here.

You regurgitated how I have scruffed and pinned Shadow in the past but did not recite my full understanding of the event, again, another straw boss. What I thought was a punishment for him is a reinforcer. So, he was behaving as any dog would that is reinforced for a behavior. Dogs do what works. In your house, a dog may not want to surf the counter, a theoretical, even a statistical possibility. Or, not surfing is being reinforced as a desired behavior, even the reinforcement is being in the good graces of the group.

And statistically speaking, 40 dogs is a small number compared to millions of other dogs out there.

Cita

This is one major reason why people prefer to get dogs as puppies instead of as rescue adults - it's a lot easier to train a dog when you're working from scratch instead of trying to undo bad habits!

I don't know why you keep making these inaccurate statements.  My experience is that rescue dogs come out of the box as mostly well behaved dogs and have very few issues that are unique and definitely a result of their handling. 

And, like the one where you say that rescue dogs comes with these pre-existing conditions like countersurfing.  I don't understand why you can see its the handler not the dog.  My current foster Asia (an adolescent lab) was given up by another foster because she had all these behavior issues and they could not take it anymore.  I watched how the dog interacted with them and yes I saw all those problem behaviors.  Once placed in my environment that keeps food in its rightful place and encourages belongingness and affection, most of those behavior have disappear, although I did have to help on a couple.  One of the behaviors that this foster had was to nip at your hands every chance it got.  I can only guess and suspect it was to startle me and get me to release any food in my hand even there was no food in my hand.  Asia still has a remnant of that behavior by touching her nose to my hand every chance she gets.

Here is another exampole of misinformation, you said "Honestly, I think free-feeding might help (as DPU and a couple of other people suggested to me privately), "  I never contacted you nor would I ever suggest free-freeding.  Where do you get this stuff.

This statement says it all, no experience so why not listen to those who have experience:   "I think part of the problem is that this is the first time she's adopted an adult dog, so she's always been able to train in the GOOD behavior - she's never had to try to break already-trained bad habits and is frustrated and clueless. And thinks that the dog "should know better," and so isn't really interested in altering her own behavior with regards to the dog. Sigh."

I understand it is very hard to grasp displaced behavior when there is no direct link to the problem and the source.  And I also understand the preferred choices of many is to create conflict situation to resolve such problem.  But the formula for me is to tend to the dog's Needs which control the urgency of the Want which is displayed in behavior.  If the Want is too urgent, then go back to satisfying the need.  I know, I did a flyby.

DPU, I guess I don't get what, exactly, you are suggesting.  Forget about foster dogs in general and how your dogs might be different than this dog....if a dog came into your home and raided the counters every time you turned your back, what would you do?  We know you say you don't use treats to train (which confuses me because in another thread you said you DO use food to train most things but a recall), you don't advocate free-feeding, and you wouldn't use any method already suggested in this thread....so what, tactically speaking (not theoretically speaking about the nature of foster dogs in general), would you do?  Just give the dog more dog food?  Why not offer some suggestions of your own instead of trying to knock down everyone else's suggestions and their dogs?

Liesje

DPU, I guess I don't get what, exactly, you are suggesting.  Forget about foster dogs in general and how your dogs might be different than this dog....if a dog came into your home and raided the counters every time you turned your back, what would you do?  We know you say you don't use treats to train (which confuses me because in another thread you said you DO use food to train most things but a recall), you don't advocate free-feeding, and you wouldn't use any method already suggested in this thread....so what, tactically speaking (not theoretically speaking about the nature of foster dogs in general), would you do?  Just give the dog more dog food?  Why not offer some suggestions of your own instead of trying to knock down everyone else's suggestions and their dogs?

I just don't get it?  I keep responding to this question with I don't know and that has to be the accepted answer.  I have learned from reading and from others and then applying what I learned to a real situation, many times over with many dogs.  How it ends up is me getting a spark from the reading and then customizing the resolve to fit the dog and at the same time, making me comfortable.  In a hypothetical case, I can easily regurgitate what I read and it would probably be similar to the responses in this thread but my past experience tells me to try and avoid conflict situation in attempting to change any behavior. 

How come everyone is running from the responsibility that the dog owner is the cause of this "bad" behavior.  I think only one member responded with an answer of I don't know.  Why is the a tendency to always follow the formula Need-->Want-->Behavior-->Human confronts behavior the norm advise?  Wy can't there be more free thinking that may result in a better situation for the dog.

I have no problem with treat training, as long as it not continuous treat training and the dog is ready for it.  Dog owners have no clue how they are affecting the dog natural drives.  Some even start a new dog on day one before they observe the natural level of the drives.   The good thing about Clicker Training is that long before it may hurt the dog, the dog owner gets bored with it, at least that is how it is with me.  If you remember the food treat training thread, a majority, most said they do it initially and then transition to praise. 

I am offering good sound suggestions as an alternative to putting a dog in a conflict situation but I am sure its a flyby once again.

DPU

Liesje

DPU, I guess I don't get what, exactly, you are suggesting.  Forget about foster dogs in general and how your dogs might be different than this dog....if a dog came into your home and raided the counters every time you turned your back, what would you do?  We know you say you don't use treats to train (which confuses me because in another thread you said you DO use food to train most things but a recall), you don't advocate free-feeding, and you wouldn't use any method already suggested in this thread....so what, tactically speaking (not theoretically speaking about the nature of foster dogs in general), would you do?  Just give the dog more dog food?  Why not offer some suggestions of your own instead of trying to knock down everyone else's suggestions and their dogs?

I just don't get it?  I keep responding to this question with I don't know and that has to be the accepted answer. 

Then maybe a simple "I don't know" would have been appropriate, without calling all the other suggestions "worthless" and telling other people their dog has "behavioral issues" when it has no relevance to the OP and her question.

DPU

spiritdogs

Maybe.... .  

I remember a recent thread where you asked:

" ...the first question that many people ask is "How do I correct (name the bad behavior).  Or, how do I stop my dog from (name the bad behavior).

JMHO, but I wish they would ask how they should train the dog to do things right!!!  Most of the problems owners run into are because they didn't start training the dog early enough, don't really know how to train properly, and make all the common mistakes in managing issues like....."

And here you are recommending a correction device to train.  And here I am giving evidence that something I do in a purely positive way does not give rise to "bad behavior" and others are doing something to create the behavior in the dog.  What to think?  What to think?

Actually, when someone asks me how to avoid a shock collar, I sense that they are interested in an immediate solution.  An environmental deterrent is not quite the same as a correction, because it is not something the dog associates with his handler.  Also, please note that I didn't suggest a "scat mat" which does issue a "stim".  I suggested sticky tape, X-mat, etc., which are pretty benign in the general scheme of things.  And, I might add, better than having Fido swallow a bottle of pills, a cooked chicken carcass, or mom's diamond ring.

It seems that you have no good answer to this, except "dunno", and yet you are unwilling to understand how the basic principles of learning can be applied to train dogs.  Believe it or not, many people successfully train their dogs to do all the various obedience skills without having ever studied drives, not that the knowledge isn't useful, but when you use it to create your own little "hokus pokus" world of how dogs think, then you are stepping beyond the bounds of science or even logic.  JMHO

spiritdogs

Actually, when someone asks me how to avoid a shock collar, I sense that they are interested in an immediate solution.  An environmental deterrent is not quite the same as a correction, because it is not something the dog associates with his handler.  Also, please note that I didn't suggest a "scat mat" which does issue a "stim".  I suggested sticky tape, X-mat, etc., which are pretty benign in the general scheme of things.  And, I might add, better than having Fido swallow a bottle of pills, a cooked chicken carcass, or mom's diamond ring.

It seems that you have no good answer to this, except "dunno", and yet you are unwilling to understand how the basic principles of learning can be applied to train dogs.  Believe it or not, many people successfully train their dogs to do all the various obedience skills without having ever studied drives, not that the knowledge isn't useful, but when you use it to create your own little "hokus pokus" world of how dogs think, then you are stepping beyond the bounds of science or even logic.  JMHO

I am not a trainer or behaviorist but I have enough experience to look at problem situation in a broader sense and try to come up with a resolve that is not confrontational nor includes any conflict situations.  I do believe the emphasis on training behavior out without looking at the root cause is a mistake.  Common sense tells me that I should never advise a person interested in an immediate solution, especially if you don't know the person or the dog, to use a "deterrent", a correction, or punishing device no matter how much the advisor thinks its benign.  Such a "quick solution" person may leap to thinking that if this works then thumb tacks would be quicker and more effective.  I don't understand how a person who professes to be a "Positive" trainer can make such a compromise.

As I said I am not a trainer or behaviorist and I should not be expected to explan myself through basic principles of learning or science.  I say this countersurfing does not exist in my home and I have a fair number of samplings to show it is not an exception case, and I explain my dog care approach, the environment the dogs live in, and which needs and drives I work on.  A very competent trainer/behaviorist would have an answer to this but I guess until one is offered, the confrontational and conflict situation solutions will be recommended.  Again, a compromise for anyone who professes to be a "Positve" trainer.

DPU

I say this countersurfing does not exist in my home and I have a fair number of samplings to show it is not an exception case, and I explain my dog care approach, the environment the dogs live in, and which needs and drives I work on.  A very competent trainer/behaviorist would have an answer to this but I guess until one is offered, the confrontational and conflict situation solutions will be recommended. 

The answer is YOU GOT LUCKY!  The dogs you take care of don't have interest in this sort of behavior.  Willow doesn't do it either.

willowchow

DPU

I say this countersurfing does not exist in my home and I have a fair number of samplings to show it is not an exception case, and I explain my dog care approach, the environment the dogs live in, and which needs and drives I work on.  A very competent trainer/behaviorist would have an answer to this but I guess until one is offered, the confrontational and conflict situation solutions will be recommended. 

The answer is YOU GOT LUCKY!  The dogs you take care of don't have interest in this sort of behavior.  Willow doesn't do it either.

You are given dogs who need a home, love, food and a roof over there heads to be cared for until a suitable permanent home can be found.  You are not given dogs with behavior problems that is clear and you have said so as well and when you were you had to seek a behaviorist to work through the problems using science and proven methods.  Trainers and behaviorist are EXPERIENCED in dog behaviors and use different methods to solve different problems.  For us on idog, we try and answer using what has worked for us or others and the trainers and behaviorist here lend there knowledge freely at no cost.  That is what is important to those seeking help not the discrediting of those who have worked with these issues from those who have not.

DPU

Unnatural use of food is anything other than satisfying the dog's hunger or giving the dog pleasure through the taste buds with no expected behavior in return.

HOW on god's green Earth can a dog WORKING for their food possibly be "unnatural"?? I'll tell you what's unnatural. A dog eating kibble out of a bowl. How many times have you seen a wild canid say "Hm, I think I'll laze around and find a nice bowl of dried pellets rather than chasing down that prey over there..."? Exactly...zero. Unnatural use of food is letting the dog eat whenever it's hungry. Unnatural use of food is pouring kibble into a bowl. Unnatural use of food is the dog not having to do anything to earn the food. Unnatural isn't necessarily bad, but I'm sorry, your way is NOT natural.

luvmyswissy

You are given dogs who need a home, love, food and a roof over there heads to be cared for until a suitable permanent home can be found.  You are not given dogs with behavior problems that is clear and you have said so as well and when you were you had to seek a behaviorist to work through the problems using science and proven methods.  Trainers and behaviorist are EXPERIENCED in dog behaviors and use different methods to solve different problems.  For us on idog, we try and answer using what has worked for us or others and the trainers and behaviorist here lend there knowledge freely at no cost.  That is what is important to those seeking help not the discrediting of those who have worked with these issues from those who have not.

Boy, memories are sure short here.  Remember Marvin the SA hound, Sampson who drank excess water, Pollyanna who was scared of people, Essie-resource guarder, Lady-small dog aggressive, Fred-pee problem, Barnum-afraid of men, etc, etc........I am listing my experience to real dog behavior issues not to offset YOUR attempt to discredit me, but to show with each new dog, with new issue, I gain additional knowledge where I can have it easier with the next one.  That is what is happening and not as you describe that I get dogs with no issues.  Its not LUCK, its what I have learned from the previous fosters and put into practice.

Trainers and behaviorist are knowledgeable, but I give creditability to those that practice what they learn and see their results from the dogs they work with.  Pushy trainers and behaviorist turn me off because they discard the most valuable information about the dog, the dog owner's knowledge and experience living with the dog. 

I simply ask the question why countersurfing does not happen in my house or Willowchows while it has happened consistently in Luvmyswissy's house.  IMO, changing the behavior does not solve the problem.