Help me avoid a shock collar!

collar might not work as well as a Scat Mat on the thresh hold...or those safe mousetraps to scare the holy bejeebers outta him.

Why not just block off the kitchen or train him to remain OUT of it totally? Cleo knows what "GIT!" means...leave this area and go elsewhere.

Unsupervised she's in her crate if I feel she needs to be...so that's another option.

I'm not getting why removing access to the kitchen with a command or physical barrier's isn't an option? depending on the kitchen set up like if it were galley closed at one end...she could even put a real door in!

I think that the easiest way to deal with it would be to teach him that he isn't allowed in the kitchen.  If that isn't an option, I would probably opt for a scat mat. 

I don't have experience with shock collars, but don't you have to catch them in the act to shock them?  If so, this is just going to make him even sneakier about his counter surfing.

 Removing access to the kitchen isn't an option because she likes him to be in there with her while she's cooking... I mean, that's my top idea... and I've suggested it repeatedly... but she's just not open to it. so not much more I can do.

I've also suggested "traps" like rolls of duct tape on the counter, or precarious piles of tin cans, or soda cans with pennies in them... no dice. The Scat Mat is a good idea - I would imagine it would be a similar price to an e-collar, and to me would seem much more effective because it eliminates the chance of user error screwing up the shock timing and would deter counter surfing even when nobody was around to watch...  I'll suggest it, or maybe even just buy one and give it to her and see what she says! The only main problem I foresee is she has a LOT of counter space, so we'd probably have to rotate the mat, and he might catch on.

I'm getting really frustrated because I'm getting the feeling that she's set on the e-collar because she sees it as a quick, easy fix, and that no other alternatives seem acceptable because they don't seem as quick and easy as "just shocking him." At the same time, I think she feels guilty because she knows I don't like the idea, so she wants me to approve of using an e-collar, which I just don't unless all other options have been tried. Argh! Either listen to my recommendations or totally ignore my advice, but don't ignore my advice and then ask me to approve of it!

Thanks for the ideas! I'm hoping maybe something will be so appealing to her that she'll have a great epiphany and either try it or leave me alone. 

Scat Mat would be best on the ENTRY point to the kitchen rather than on the counters...what is she thinking allowing a fool dog bent on stealing iN THE KITCHEN WITH HER? lol..she sounds like she's being silly to me. He needs to simply be trained not to go in there..it's sure kinder than zapping him...

If the deep down source of this dog's problem is the earlier habit developed when he had to eat food when he could get it, associating unpleasantness with looking for food is going to make him (I'm afraid) really messed up.  What I fear is that he'll either get really depressed or else it will turn into real conflict with you upping the ante and him figuring out another workaround.  Such a dog is likely to "take the shock" rather than, in their minds, risk starvation again.

I'm not totally against handling counter surfing firmly and directly, or indirectly.  In this case though I'd be more inclined to instill lots and lots of activities where he can work for food in a predictable way - volunteering behaviors for wee treats, if possible even spreading his kibble out over an entire day, day after day, until he feels empowered enough about food that the kitchen will no longer seem so marvelous.

I'd also train him to focus more on me as the most interesting thing in the world - encouraging this by asking him to move with me anytime I left the room, or went out of sight outside.  Again, this makes many dogs start thinking more about what you might do next, rather than amusing themselves or satisfying their urges on their own.

I just feel that putting any pressure on this dog related to food or even the Wonderful Place of Food, is overlooking an opportunity to change his focus from the kitchen to his "mom." 

Excellent post, Becca. And I would agree elsewhere that the shock collar at best will only do what the spray bottle does, i.e., cause him to figure out how to not get caught.

So, yes, show him how he can get all the food he wants as long as it doesn't involve counter surfing. And, if necessary, revoke kitchen privileges. Part of being a responsible adult is doing things we sometimes don't want to do, but have to do in order to make things right.

What they said.

Have you let her know how SUPER vigilent she'll have to be to catch this boy in the act?  Not so quick and easy a fix.

Just say no.   

Double sided tape + X-mat? http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=x+mat&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=1098930521&ref=pd_sl_6z1ckazcj9_e

Much better than a shock collar IMO 

I'm not against shock collars but I think they should be used for training, not punishment.  I guess one could be used for punishment, but then they might not have much success using it to train for anything else.  There are different schools of thought on how to use them (go figure), but the people I've seen with the most success who have dogs that are well trained and well balanced (not avoiding punishment) do not give nicks as punishments, but the e-collar is used for negative reinforcement.  The most experienced shock collar trainers that I trust use it in this way (see Lou Castle's web site).  It could still work for counter surfing, but you'd give an "off" command (or whatever they use) and have the collar on continuous until the dog until he gets his paws off, not wait until his paws are up and then start nicking.  Good shock collars and experiences trainers are expensive though, I think there are cheaper and just as effective tools for dealing with counter surfing.

Well, this is more than just an annoyance -- it becomes a matter of the dog's safety because you never know what they're going to steal.  BTW, I didn't know peanut butter still came in glass jars....  Anyhow, what if next time he found a big block of baking chocolate or something?  Not good.

You can get the invisible fence units set up for specific spots in your house.  I used to work for a place that sold PetStop fences and they did a lot of indoor jobs.  In this case you could just set the perimeters around the counters since the owner still wants the dogs in the kitchen.  My friend actually did this same set-up to keep her cats off her kitchen counters and she said it works perfectly.

No, the initial set-up isn't going to be "cheap," but it will keep the dog safe and the owner will be able to relax a bit more.

I PM'd you.  Good luck!

You are right about the indoor invisible fence being a great option.  A friend of mine has two terriers and to keep them from bothering the cats she set up two "safe" rooms for the kitties. 

Electric collars are very effective but the danger is that most people do not have the training/skill to use them properly and in this case it seems like the owner is trying to take what she THINKS is the easy way out.

I have an outdoor invisible fence and I am going to assume the indoor is the same.  The key to success to invisible fences, shock collar or any type of stim type methods is training!!

Before we ever allowed our dogs freedom in the yard or on the fence we trained for 3-4 weeks!  We purchase Canine Fence and they included training sessions for us.  Brining dogs to the fence line and walking them and when the "beep" sounded running back into the yard like mad people and repeat and repeat until the dogs response to the beep was to run into the yard (not away and over the fence).  Then after that you allow them leashed to room the fence line and pass the warning beep if they want - that's when they get the stim and run back in.  Most of time they don't push past the beep ever again.  For indoor fences your MIL will need to train and I would buy from a company who teaches and trains with you.  You can't just put up a fence and leave a dog his own punishment and not show them what to do when the hear the warnings - same goes for collars.  It is not a punishment, it is to be used as a training tool as others have said.  That said, training is required and there is no magic with stim devices.

We have three dogs trained on the fence all different types of personalities and drives and all three are successfully trained and not one of them has been stimmed more than two times and that was only in the beginning.

 It sounds to me that she likes the dog and likes having it in there with her, so she might be willing to do some training.  I have a dog that came to me in a similar condition and really can't be trusted without supervision.  He raids the trash sometimes and would countersurf if I left stuff on the counter.  I crate him if I can't watch him, but he's in the kitchen with me when I prepare food.  Initially, he was pretty obnoxious about sniffing and trying to get at what I was working on.  I just trained him with treats to lie in front of the kitchen door when I'm in there .  He loves apples, so I cut one into tiny pieces, put him in a stay there and every so often, I'd say "Good stay" and give him a piece.  Some people train it with a name like "Place" or "Mat", I just say "go lay down" and then reward him when he does.  It only took a couple days and now when I go to the kitchen, he plops right down at the door with anticipation.  That approach might work with your BFs mother.  And she really should just crate him or tether him to stay with them when they're not in the kitchen if they won't block it off or make it off limits.  Indie's like that.  When I'm in the LR or the office, I just don't let him wander because he's bound to get something inappropriate in his mouth.  I don't block off the kitchen, but I don't allow him in there alone either.