Help me avoid a shock collar!

Ditto to all the above however the basic step #1 is to remove stuff from the counters.  That way when he does sneak in a surfing session there is no reward!

Build a food reward system into puzzles and safe activities but if he learns that there is nothing of interest up there then, well, it will be less interesting!

A scat mat is relatively inexpensive and should be rotated to be most effective.  It is a good training tool for times that he is doing something unsupervised...which is another story, right?

 Thanks, everyone! They actually do a really good job of keeping things off the counters 98% of the time, but it's a huuuuge kitchen and is constantly in use, so occasionally something slips through the cracks (like a sealed glass gar of peanut butter!). He's a velcro dog to the extreme EXCEPT for when he occasionally goes foraging in the kitchen, like if his owner gets distracted by the telephone. He's also crated when they're gone, have a lot of company over, etc., but they like to avoid crating him when possible since he has to stay in it most of the day while she's at work (6-1 or so).

Anyway, I talked to her today, presented various options, and she decided to go with Scat Mat Strips that are designed to be placed along the edge of the counter and rotated around to the various countertops.

I'd love to have her work on a "go to your spot" type command, but she's hard to train - she's one of those dog owners that thinks dogs should come pre-trained and speaking English. You know the type - if the dog doesn't respond to your command the first time, just say it again LOUDER, because the dog KNOWS what he's supposed to do!! Sigh... one must be patient in training one's 2-legged friends as well as the 4-legged, right?

brookcove

I just feel that putting any pressure on this dog related to food or even the Wonderful Place of Food, is overlooking an opportunity to change his focus from the kitchen to his "mom." 

Yes, so easy to do by keeping the food in the dog dish and making mealtime and snack time a social event.  IMO, countersurfing and garbage raiding are very typical behaviors for dog owners who continually train with food.  If this was a truly velcro dog, food would not taste as good if it was eaten alone.  Countersurfing has almost never has happened in my house because I keep food in its rightly place to satisfy hunger and give pleasure to the taste buds.  I am very disappointed at all the traditional training recommendations and physical punishing devices.  Surprised that no one mention the harness that restrains the dog from jumping a few inches off the floor. 

DPU

I am very disappointed at all the traditional training recommendations and physical punishing devices.  Surprised that no one mention the harness that restrains the dog from jumping a few inches off the floor. 

First of all, shouldn't such a harness not be left on all day? As in, only for walks and such? Secondly, isn't a harness that physically prevents the dog from jumping another form of a physical punishing device? (Not that it's a bad idea - he apparently also jumps on guests sometimes when he's really excited, so I might suggest that to her as well.)

If it makes you feel better, DPU, there is very little formal "training" done with this dog, so as a result, very few of the food-based training rewards you so dislike. The dog gets his food at 5:45 or so in the morning and then 4:30 in the evening, and that's that. He also regularly gets marrow bones to chew on and play with, and once he's given one, he gets to keep it until it's so old it's at risk of splintering.

The dog has a tug-a-jug, but it doesn't work because the kibbles he eats are flat and slip right through. I think I'm going to get him a busy buddy twist-n-treat (those purple ufo-shaped things) to keep around to hopefully give him more appropriate food-searching outlets. That is, assuming he doesn't destroy it and I can get his owner to actually fill the darn thing. He does have a Kong, but they almost never use it (too much hassle to fill and refill, I guess).

I think part of the problem is that this is the first time she's adopted an adult dog, so she's always been able to train in the GOOD behavior - she's never had to try to break already-trained bad habits and is frustrated and clueless. And thinks that the dog "should know better," and so isn't really interested in altering her own behavior with regards to the dog. Sigh.

I was not recommending a no jump harness, just expressing my surprise that no one suggested this straight jacket restrainng device.  Whats missing out of your post is the none existence social activity surrounding meal time.  I guess, I believe this is the answer as to why I have never had counter surfing or garbage raid in my house.  There has to be explanation for this behavior not to arise and if it doesn't arise then there is no need to confront the pet with all these human created conflict situations.  All the recommendations are just not worth it.  What is exactly wrong with a dog jumping up on the counter.  Most counters are scratch proof. 

DPU

All the recommendations are just not worth it

Some of them are, actually. Simple fact of the matter is, reward training is effective. Some dogs, in spite of the fact that they just ate, do forage. Just as some dogs, in spite of all the affection and stable pack dynamics in the world, are still DA. Just as some dogs will not respond to a treat in certain circumstances or when they are locked on to target.

For some dogs, the scat strip will work. The loud noise will deter them, whether anyone happens to like that or not. For other dogs, a special treat, even if they just ate, will be all the incentive they need to behave the way they are expected to behave. Not everyone has room, time, or resources for 5 or 6 dogs to create a "stable pack", nor should they have to in order to have a dog. Plenty of dogs might be happy in your presence but that is not enough to guide them to do what you need or require.

Some dogs will gorge to the point of nearly getting colic, except that dogs can burp, which helps alleviate that pressure. Some dogs have the need to work. To follow. And if you or another dog won't lead, they will lead themselves, loving you all the time, and deciding what they will do.

DPU

What is exactly wrong with a dog jumping up on the counter. 

Some homes would encounter disaster if dogs were allowed on countertops. Although, following the logic of allowing dogs on counter tops, we should also allow them to roam free, to mate incessantly, to sit on any furniture without having to move, etc.

I think that a dog who was routinely starved is a bit different than all our pampered "treat trained" animals.  And I suspect that in some part of this dogs brain there is a little reminder that he needs to eat what he can when he can.

Meals at my house are NOT social events.    Everyone has to go to his or her place and eating is about nourishing their bodies, not about discussing the days events.  My dogs do not counter surf, despite the use of treats in training, and despite the use of treats now and then, just because.  Now and then I'll treat after a particularly pleasant walk, but not often and no one associates a pleasant walk with a treat because they never know when or if it's coming.

My kitchen is teeny tiny in this RV.  Very little counter space.  Yet last night, I left the roast on the counter while I prepared other parts of the meal, and no one so much as raised an eyebrow.  My dogs have learned that if it isn't in their bowl, it isn't theirs, unless I specifically offer it to them.  Yet, I still keep the counters as clear as possible at all other times of the day, and I don't leave treats on the counters to entice them to misbehave.

For me the issue is not so much that they might scratch the counters, as that they need to respect that what is mine is MINE and they can't just take what they want when they want.  It's a matter of manners.

  IMO, countersurfing and garbage raiding are very typical behaviors for dog owners who continually train with food.

That is an incorrect statement.  I have an Aussie who could jump a six foot fence, but never surfs the counters, and she was clicker trained with - you guessed it- about five tons of roast beef, cheese, tripe, chicken, salmon brownies, and Charley Bear treats.  The reason dogs counter surf is that they find something of interest there, and they get it.  It's a self reinforcing behavior and occurs in any dog that learns that counters are where the good stuff is.  Dogs can just as easily learn that there's never anything up there for them, and that the good stuff is in the interactive toy on the floor.  You have to keep the food off the counters for a long time (allow surfing behavior to extinguish because the dog will eventually stop doing a behavior that never gets them anywhere), and if necessary, make it a bit uncomfortable to put paws on areas where the humans don't want you to go (X-mat or scat mat or aluminum foil or sticky tape), and teach an alternate behavior (go to place and stay there or boundary training).  It is the human wish to have instant results that keeps the dog unsuccessful at learning. 

spiritdogs

 

  IMO, countersurfing and garbage raiding are very typical behaviors for dog owners who continually train with food.

I have an Aussie who could jump a six foot fence, but never surfs the counters, and she was clicker trained with - you guessed it- about five tons of roast beef, cheese, tripe, chicken, salmon brownies, and Charley Bear treats.  The reason dogs counter surf is that they find something of interest there, and they get it.

Never or Nevered?  I would suspect that the countersurfing behavior had to be trained out.  But it doesn't matter, countersurfing doesn't happen at my house and I think the odds are great that it should since new dogs that come here haven't had the best of life or the best nutrition.  No explanation of this is offer and I would expect any knowledgeable dog person to have a ready answer instead of recommending a head-on conflict situation.

 Rascal is trained pretty much exclusively with food rewards, except in a very few instances (such as working towards a "fetch" by using toy-chasing as a reward). Meal time is not "social," and he has to do some sort of command before he gets his dinner, even though it's usually just, "Where do you go for dinner?" or something simple.

He has never once counter-surfed, and actually fairly frequently will sit on either my or BF's lap during human dinner time and - gasp!! - get fed table scraps periodically. Yet he never tries to grab what's on our plates because he understands that it's ours, not his. Actually, I did find him standing on the kitchen table one day, but I think he was just doing it to explore, not to look for good. There was food out on the table (some fruit, and some bread) but he didn't touch any of it - when I saw him, he was just standing there and started wagging his tail as if to say, "Hey, isn't this cool? I can get all the way up here!!" I scolded him gently and told him "off," and I haven't seen him (or any evidence of him) on the table since. And quite honestly, we leave stuff out all the time.

I do think countersurfing and garbage raiding are very typical behaviors for dogs who have experienced starvation, like BF's family's rescue dog (the one in question). I totally agree that there's some remnant in this other dog's brain going, "OMG, food! I'd better get it - there might not be any more coming later!" I'll see if I can work with the dog's owner to try and lessen that. Honestly, I think free-feeding might help (as DPU and a couple of other people suggested to me privately), but BF's mother is dead-set against it because she's battled for months and months to get this dog's digestion fairly "normal" and doesn't want to upset the balance. Plus, because of his background of being starved, she's worried he would eat himself into some serious health problems.

There has to be explanation for this behavior not to arise and if it doesn't arise then there is no need to confront the pet with all these human created conflict situations... What is exactly wrong with a dog jumping up on the counter.

I know this might come as a shock to you, DPU, but occasionally rescue dogs come with pre-existing issues and bad habits, even including countersurfing.  And, as was proven by the sealed glass peanut butter jar situation, sometimes counter surfing can present a real safety hazard. What if the jar had been vinegar or some other non-food-item and not peanut butter? He still would have broken it, and he still would have hurt himself on the glass shards. That's not an acceptable risk. Also, as I'm sure you know, bad habits like countersurfing are one of the main reasons people end up surrending their dogs to shelters. Clearly it's in the dog's best interest to teach it good manners - even though this particular owner would never give up her dog, if something horrible were to happen and she were, say, permanently hospitalized, it would be very hard to place the dog in a new home if he hadn't already broken the habit of looking for food on the counters.

And I totally agree that looking for an "instant fix" is pretty much the opposite of what dog training is about. I'm working on "training" this dog's human, but just like with a dog, it's a slow process. 

Thanks again for all the input and suggestions. I'll keep you posted with how it goes.

ours are carefully and systematically taught USING LOTS OF FOOD REWARDS to leave food alone unless invited to eat it. You can leave a roast beef on the floor and walk out of the room for fifteen minutes and it'll be there when you get back (actually did this once). Might be some huge drool puddles but food is left there. There's bread, a canister of dog treats, fruits, and two bags of kibble in easy reach of doggies right now and they will be untouched when I get home. And mealtimes are NOT social events at my house, the dogs are actually fed in different rooms. They prefer it that way- some of them get nervous eating near other dogs.

I'm fairly sure this lady in the original OP wouldn't be willing to even try the training required for total food reliability.

Funny, my treat trained dog ignores food I leave out, and often won't even accept food from other people even if they are offering it to her.  A few weeks ago I left a bowl of tasty snacks on the ground (snacks she will readily eat if I offer them).  I was too far away to pick up the bowl but I saw her walk over to it, sniff it, and back away.  When I came back she wagged her tail and looked at the bowl, then at me.  At home DH and I often eat on the couch and use a low coffee table.  I've never had issues with Kenya trying to grab food, even if we get up and leave.

Coke is an opportunistic counter surfer.  He is not obsessive about it, but if something like raw meat is left out within reach and no one is looking, he will go for it.  To me it's not that big of a deal.  It's unattended raw meat, he is a dog.  Fool me once, shame on him, fool me again, shame on me.  I keep the counters clear because I'm obsessively clean anyway, and if I do catch him with his paws up I slap the counter really loudly and follow up by having him do something really simple to earn a treat, so he hopefully starts to understand that he CAN earn treats, just not by stealing things off the counter.

mudpuppy

ours are carefully and systematically taught USING LOTS OF FOOD REWARDS to leave food alone unless invited to eat it. You can leave a roast beef on the floor and walk out of the room for fifteen minutes and it'll be there when you get back (actually did this once). Might be some huge drool puddles but food is left there. There's bread, a canister of dog treats, fruits, and two bags of kibble in easy reach of doggies right now and they will be untouched when I get home. And mealtimes are NOT social events at my house, the dogs are actually fed in different rooms. They prefer it that way- some of them get nervous eating near other dogs.

I'm fairly sure this lady in the original OP wouldn't be willing to even try the training required for total food reliability.

DPU

 Contrast with me having to do nothing but fullfill the dog's needs and satisfy the wants....and the behavior has almost never reared its head.....go figure.

I'll send you Indie, you can work your magic on him.  The furniture, leash and shoe stores in your area will thank me.  Of course, you'll have to cover the vet bills when he eats himself into oblivion and consumes several tennis balls, among other things.     

See all the work, alllll the work and time that had to be done to force this behavior to stop.  And all the money on the extra FOOD REWARDS that had to be spent just so the dog leaves the food alone.  How complicated, how confrontational, what a lot of conflicts to go through.  Contrast with me having to do nothing but fullfill the dog's needs and satisfy the wants....and the behavior has almost never reared its head.....go figure.

 I can tell you this, my only rescue dog - Brooke was a perfect Angle for her first 4 months in my house.  We couldn't believe how well behaved and trained she seemed to be.  After her adjustment period she changed, not a lot but somewhat.  She became an opportunist as well, and would sneak around the food products.  She also tried other things she wouldn't have in the beginning too.  I

Maybe DPU you don't see these behaviors because you don't have the dogs long enough for them to really feel comfortable around you and your pack.  And if you do have the "magic" why not share them with us in some detail and not be so vague as to say "I establish a relationship", how bout it?