Help me avoid a shock collar!

DPU

See all the work, alllll the work and time that had to be done to force this behavior to stop.  And all the money on the extra FOOD REWARDS that had to be spent just so the dog leaves the food alone.

Well, Shadow has not countersurfed. The few times he sniffed at the counter, I directed him to sit or down and gave him a treat for that. All the money, eh? Worth it, to us, whatever it cost. A handful of treats about 3 or 4 times. That looked an awful lot like a "straw boss", debate-wise.

DPU

How complicated, how confrontational, what a lot of conflicts to go through. 

No conflict at all. My way is the best way, the preferred way.

DPU

Contrast with me having to do nothing but fullfill the dog's needs and satisfy the wants....and the behavior has almost never reared its head.....go figure

More than likely because Drizzle will not allow it.

I guess different people have different experiences. Shadow has his needs and wants fullfilled but I don't see training away an undesired behavior as a sign that a want or need is unfullfilled. I see the undesired behavior as a dog doing what he can in his environment to investigate or to secure resources. I've seen dogs bury bones as a resource to have later. That is, having already eaten, they will still secure resources and stash them away, if possible.

luvmyswissy

 I can tell you this, my only rescue dog - Brooke was a perfect Angle for her first 4 months in my house.  We couldn't believe how well behaved and trained she seemed to be.  After her adjustment period she changed, not a lot but somewhat.  She became an opportunist as well, and would sneak around the food products.  She also tried other things she wouldn't have in the beginning too.  I

Maybe DPU you don't see these behaviors because you don't have the dogs long enough for them to really feel comfortable around you and your pack.  And if you do have the "magic" why not share them with us in some detail and not be so vague as to say "I establish a relationship", how bout it?

The onus is not on me because the behavior has not come up in a little over 40 fosters that have come to stay with me.  You would think it should, especially in the beginning when I first started.  But it very rarely happened and I use the word rarely even though I don't remember a time.  The Onus to explain why the dog does this behavior is on the dog owner who, IMO is the one that caused the behavior.  By your post, your rescue dog was great for 4 months and then this behavior started.  Rather than blame the dog or the "acclimation period", examine and think of what you did that eventually sparked this behavior..  There has to be some common thread amongst all those surfing dogs.  And, I don't understand why trainers advise confrontational methods like boobytraps or even treating a food problem with food.  As I said in a previous post, a very competent trainer would have an answer.

I have had a foster as long as 1 year and 5 months (Marvin) and as short as 4 weeks (Brownie) and every length of time in between.  My learned experience says for most dogs the acclimination period is one month and is extended if the dog is mending and reduced if the dog is older.  Yes, I spend a lot of time upfront caring for the dog's needs and building a trusting relationship.  I forgo training and have little expectations.  I give the dog freedom and gradually expose the dog to new situation.  I focus on one issue at a time, if any.   As I said, I have not experience any food related issues yet.  There has to be an explanation for this also which I do not have. 

ron2

Well, Shadow has not countersurfed. The few times he sniffed at the counter, I directed him to sit or down and gave him a treat for that. All the money, eh? Worth it, to us, whatever it cost. A handful of treats about 3 or 4 times. That looked an awful lot like a "straw boss", debate-wise.

Are you remembering correctly?  I thought it was only recently that you food trained Shadow and prior you used the scruff the neck method to change behavior.

It doesn't matter, Shadow started the behavior and the question you should be asking yourself is how did that happen, what did you do? 

DPU

See all the work, alllll the work and time that had to be done to force this behavior to stop.  And all the money on the extra FOOD REWARDS that had to be spent just so the dog leaves the food alone.

LOL, my food rewards these days consist of stale crackers and blueberries when they get too mushy for my taste (Kenya loves them), something I'd throw out anyway.  And like I said, Kenya has never counter surfed or made any moves towards my food often left on a low table.  The TDI involves walking OVER dog cookies or meat left on the floor and she passed that without even practicing.  She is a dog that has been food trained almost her entire life thus far.  Actually the worst counter surfers I have ever seen were some of my cats, talk about animals that have never ever been food trained and are definitely spoiled rotten, above and beyond fulfilling needs!

Liesje

LOL, my food rewards these days consist of stale crackers and blueberries when they get too mushy for my taste (Kenya loves them), something I'd throw out anyway.  And like I said, Kenya has never counter surfed or made any moves towards my food often left on a low table.  The TDI involves walking OVER dog cookies or meat left on the floor and she passed that without even practicing.  She is a dog that has been food trained almost her entire life thus far. 

But you must admit you have had other behavior issues with Kenya and it probably was not evident it was food related.  All I am saying is that some people unknowingly unintentionally create these types of behavior in dogs and then they have to go through a lot of trouble to change the behavior and once that behavior is change and the origin of the problem is not addressed, then another behavior problem arises.  This cycle just seems to keep the trainers in business.

I can think of anything "I" did to cause counter surfing.  I had one dog who coutersurf everychance he got and one who is sneaky about it.  The only thing I can think of is that Brooke smells something she wants to try and get and River is just looking for a jackpot that wasn't stowed away in time.

LOL, My pug dosen't counter surf at all.

DPU

Liesje

LOL, my food rewards these days consist of stale crackers and blueberries when they get too mushy for my taste (Kenya loves them), something I'd throw out anyway.  And like I said, Kenya has never counter surfed or made any moves towards my food often left on a low table.  The TDI involves walking OVER dog cookies or meat left on the floor and she passed that without even practicing.  She is a dog that has been food trained almost her entire life thus far. 

But you must admit you have had other behavior issues with Kenya and it probably was not evident it was food related. 

She came to me with a behavior issue (and IMO counter surfing is a training and/or management issue, not so much a behavior issue, unless the dog is actually obsessive compulsive about counter surfing), I have no idea if it was food related, but it has nothing to do with counter surfing.  Maybe she counter-surfed in her previous home (no one mentioned it so I suspect not), but she never has with me.  I'm not getting the connection...

DPU

The onus is not on me because the behavior has not come up in a little over 40 fosters that have come to stay with me.  You would think it should, especially in the beginning when I first started.  But it very rarely happened and I use the word rarely even though I don't remember a time.  The Onus to explain why the dog does this behavior is on the dog owner who, IMO is the one that caused the behavior. 

Yes, and in this particular case, the owner who caused the behavior was the one who STARVED the dog, left him crated 20 hours a day for the first 3.5 years of his life, ignored basic vet care, and then gave him up to a rescue once the dog was emaciated and had serious digestive troubles that resulted in almost 4 months of constant diarrhea. Which was reaaaaaally fun for his new owner, let me tell you.

I don't know that there's necessarily a "common thread" to the behavior - lots of dogs bark, for example. Some do it because they're bored, some do it because they're stressed, some do it because they're happy, some do it to get attention... Just because a behavior is common across animals doesn't mean the root of the behavior is, too. Just like with people - lots of people drink alcohol, for lots of different reasons.

DPU, if you got a foster dog that was a determined countersurfer - to the point of seeking out and attempting to get in to anything left on any flat surface in your house, whether kitchens or tables or stoves - what would you do? Assume this behavior has persisted even though you have given the dog plenty of food, made feeding a "social event" or whatever it is that you like, and the dog is otherwise happy and healthy. Oh, and the dog does this when you turn you back for even a milisecond What would you do?

He's not going to answer. 

Cita

DPU, if you got a foster dog that was a determined countersurfer - to the point of seeking out and attempting to get in to anything left on any flat surface in your house, whether kitchens or tables or stoves - what would you do? Assume this behavior has persisted even though you have given the dog plenty of food, made feeding a "social event" or whatever it is that you like, and the dog is otherwise happy and healthy. Oh, and the dog does this when you turn you back for even a milisecond What would you do?

Sorry, I have no experience and you would think with all those dogs.....you would think they would come with this behavior, afterall someone said countersurfing is one of the reasons why a dog is turned into a shelter.....and I take in shelter dogs.....so what is going on.  Also, as I said in another thread, you guys are going to have teach me your way on how to unintentionally teach a dog to countersurf.  But know for sure, I am not going to use food like cheese, roast beef, and turkey in an unnatural way to get a dog to do my bidding. 

 Do you consider leaving food out in the kitchen to be "unnatural"? Do you never leave food out in your home? Perhaps you don't cook much? I'm curious how you have all these oodles and oodles of dogs in your home and yet have never had a dog steal something off a counter or table. Or maybe your definition of "countersurfing" is different from mine? (I'm using it to mean taking, without permission, food or other items from counters, tables, or other flat non-doggy areas.)

She didn't ask if you had experience.  She asked what would you do if you had to deal with this issue.  Would you not foster the dog?  What?

Unnatural use of food is anything other than satisfying the dog's hunger or giving the dog pleasure through the taste buds with no expected behavior in return.

I am talking about the kitchen countertop where human and dog food is prepared.  Yeah, I have Great Danes and they don't even have to jump, just stretch their neck a little.  Me too, I am curious as why it does not happen and at the same time I am curious as why it happens in other's home. 

willowchow

She didn't ask if you had experience.  She asked what would you do if you had to deal with this issue.  Would you not foster the dog?  What?

And my honest response is I don't know and that answer just has to be accepted.  But for sure, I would not do any of the recommendations in this thread. 

DPU

Unnatural use of food is anything other than satisfying the dog's hunger or giving the dog pleasure through the taste buds with no expected behavior in return.

I am talking about the kitchen countertop where human and dog food is prepared.  Yeah, I have Great Danes and they don't even have to jump, just stretch their neck a little.  Me too, I am curious as why it does not happen and at the same time I am curious as why it happens in other's home. 

Maybe you're a crap cook.