Help me avoid a shock collar!

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU
    I am offering good sound suggestions as an alternative to putting a dog in a conflict situation but I am sure its a flyby once again.

     

    Maybe you're right and it is a "flyby" (I don't know what that means) - either way, I haven't been able to understand what exactly you are suggesting.

    Could you please try to repeat these good, sound, alternative suggestions you've been offering? I haven't picked up on them, so maybe you could rephrase them such that I could understand better?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Cita

    Could you please try to repeat these good, sound, alternative suggestions you've been offering? I haven't picked up on them, so maybe you could rephrase them such that I could understand better?

    I think you are making fun now.  I think your only choice is to advise your BF family to do the confrontational and conflict situation methods.  They are not willing to do right by the dog.  The punishing devices will be an immediate fix to the problem and maybe they won't notice the alternative "bad" behavior the dog develops.  They maybe even be able to better tolerate the alternate behavior. 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     DPU, I can't tell whether or not you're joking.

    The only suggestions I've heard from you were "keep food in the dog's dish and make mealtime a social event" - I explained that the dog is quite well fed, and I don't know what you mean by a "social event," and that you suggest *not* training by using treats, to which I responded they already don't train with food. If you are suggesting "free feeding," as in, keeping the dog's bowl full at all times, that is definitely one option but the owner is worried it would cause the dog to become seriously ill as he already has a very delicate and sensitive stomach (potential food allergies? nobody's been able to determine for sure, but we've only found one food so far he will tolerate without explosive diarrhea). So, while I don't discount free feeding as a viable option, I also don't blame the owner for being worried and not wanting to try it.

    Then, you suggested it was the owner's fault that the behavior developed in the first place, even though the dog, who was a rescue, came with this behavior already firmly in place. As in, walked in the door to his new home, ran around in a brief circle to sniff the floor, and then jumped up to see what was on the counter. So, yes, maybe it was the owner's fault... the FIRST owner's fault. The one who starved the dog as a puppy. So that doesn't really help us at all.

    If there are other suggestions you offered that I missed, I would be happy for you to repeat them so that I would better understand.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I really like this article and this is probably what I'd follow if I had the same problem.  I think it explains what to do and not do very clearly.  And, if all else fails and they do really want a shock collar they have the ones that have the vibrate feature that just buzzes to distract the dog but it doesn't hurt. 

    http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1034

    • Gold Top Dog

    willowchow

    I really like this article and this is probably what I'd follow if I had the same problem.  I think it explains what to do and not do very clearly.  And, if all else fails and they do really want a shock collar they have the ones that have the vibrate feature that just buzzes to distract the dog but it doesn't hurt. 

    http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1034

     

    Thanks so much for posting that link, Lori.  People who want to train without pain now have a logical step by step thanks to you.  Karen Pryor has a saying that she's famous for ' "It's just behavior", meaning that if a dog exhibits a behavior, it can be modified.  So, even a difficult behavior, such as counter surfing, that has been made stronger due to intermittent reinforcement, can be modified.  I hope everyone with a counter surfing dog will give this a try.

    • Gold Top Dog

    As an experience of my trade, I have been electrocuted a number of times, usually 120 V, small current, from one point of my hand, usually a finger to another part of the same hand. Though, sometimes my other hand was the ground point and the juice went across my chest. A couple of times, I have been bit by 277 V. Time slows down. Even a momentary contact feels like quite a time. It is an unpleasant experience, to say the least. However, I have been bit by 120 V so many times that it feels like a nerve twinge and I put a meter on it to verify.

    And it is not something I wish on any other creature. If that's anthropromorphism, sue me.

    And all the electrocution taught me was how to more safely work energized, rather than not work energized.

    Why do I mention this? To illustrate that even a painful, potentially fatal punishment doesn't always stop what you think it will. My trade can be fatal. At the right voltage, it takes 1/10 of 1 amp to kill a grown man. A few years ago, a man at the company I work for, defying the company policy to only work on de-energized circuits, got himself hooked up on a little transformer that steps 277 down to 12 for some low voltage lighting. I won't go into the Ideal Transformer Law and the accompanying math but suffice it to say that the current on the 12 V side is more than 10 times the current on the 277 V side. Anyway, he got shocked, fell off of his 10 foot ladder and hit the floor. Sat up, grunted once, and then lay back down and died. As in, where do we send the flowers. A remote collar on a dog may not deal with these levels but there is documented evidence of permanent disfiguration of the hide at the contact points on the collar. At best, you are introducing a physical painful stim that can cause permanent damage and panic. Yes, repeated electrocutions can also cause permanent changes in brain structure and chemistry and that's a documented fact. And, at best, you might stop the one behavior that you are aiming to stop. If so, I raise my light saber in a salute and may the Force be with you. But, often, you will not be sure of what you are stopping or deterring. If the stim is not hard enough to stop, and some dogs do have tough hides and individual neurology where they do not register pain at a level that cripples other creatures. Then the stim might just be a cue and such a cue could be just as easily marked by a vibrating collar that does not cause damage. Or a marker such as a click, whistle, or short, monosyllabic word that marks the desired behavior. Almost three weeks ago, I broke the bone in a fingertip at work. After about 20 minutes of soaking in ice water, I went back to work as best I could, because I have a high tolerance for pain. It hurts me as much as it hurts any of you, I can just put up with it for a really long time. It wasn't until lunchtime and a supervisor convinced me I should have it checked out for purposes of defining just what the injury was. Closed fracture of the middle finger tip, left hand. Reduction of fluid by means of a cauterized hole in the fingernail. It wasn't until about 6:30 that evening when I finally had a chance to take a Lortab to take the edge off that. And there are dogs like that, too. Stoic and able to put up with a lot. And the event won't stop me from doing electrical work. It will just cause me to figure out another way to do the task without getting injured. You see, the punishment doesn't always stop the action, it just causes an amendment to the procedure. In fact, on the company's injury report, I was asked how to prevent this injury in the future. My response was to define another way to set wire stands on plywood in the mud in the rain. Point being, it can be the same way for a dog. They will figure out another way to do what they are doing, unless something better comes along. For example, if I had a crew of helpers, I would have them do it, which would prevent the chance of injury for me. A dog motivated to not counter surf, will then not countersurf. Or the behavior will extinguish if there's nothing in it for the dog.

    So, the defining questions ring true.

    What is reinforcing the dog to do this?

    What behavior do I want, instead?

    What's my reinforcement for setting wire stands on plywood in the mud in the rain? I get paid to do it, regardless of conditions or obstacles. $50,000 of wire is sitting out and it's going to get pulled into the pipe, whether my finger gets mashed or not. I would prefer not to have my finger mashed.

    • Gold Top Dog

     My FIRST thought on reading this post is: have you suggested NILIF?  This dog needs to learn how to obtain food in acceptable, nay, DESIRABLE ways.  This will empower the dog and give him a sense of security (ie. I know I don't have to go hungry again because all I have to do is "blank";)  At the moment the "blank" is "jump up on the kitchen counters and help myself", whereas it COULD be, "sit on cue" or "go to my special mat and lie down" or something of that nature.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Chuffy

     My FIRST thought on reading this post is: have you suggested NILIF?  This dog needs to learn how to obtain food in acceptable, nay, DESIRABLE ways.  This will empower the dog and give him a sense of security (ie. I know I don't have to go hungry again because all I have to do is "blank";)  At the moment the "blank" is "jump up on the kitchen counters and help myself", whereas it COULD be, "sit on cue" or "go to my special mat and lie down" or something of that nature.

    That's been my point several times. That marker training, even NILIF, is empowering to the dog, giving them away to satisfy their wants and desires but at least one has considered that a conflict.