Myth of Purely Positive Dog Training

Mudpuppy, whats missing from your post is WHY don't you add value to the COME command by whistling, smooching, tongue clicking, shouting or saying the Come command more than once.

cues like COME don't have value. It's just information you give to the dog as to how the dog may earn valuable reinforcements from you right now. The word itself is meaningless to the dog and also has no inherent motivational value. Roast beef has value. Praise and petting has value. Cues don't have value.

Whistling, smooching, tongue clicking, shouting. dragging dog around on a rope are all ploys owners of under-trained dogs resort to and are NOT likely to lead to successful dog training; they sort of fall into "luring" category.

Repeating the come command is a really good way to teach your dog that it doesn't mean anything and can be happily ignored.

mudpuppy

cues like COME don't have value. It's just information you give to the dog as to how the dog may earn valuable reinforcements from you right now. The word itself is meaningless to the dog and also has no inherent motivational value. Roast beef has value. Praise and petting has value. Cues don't have value.

Whistling, smooching, tongue clicking, shouting. dragging dog around on a rope are all ploys owners of under-trained dogs resort to and are NOT likely to lead to successful dog training; they sort of fall into "luring" category.

Repeating the come command is a really good way to teach your dog that it doesn't mean anything and can be happily ignored.

After I posted I realized I didn't mean "value", I meant place a human emphasis on the command.  A dog does learn the differences between emphasis like raising (high playful pitch) your voice for meaning fun-playful or lowering your voice in a "I mean business tone".  So with that, what is wrong with adding emphasis to the command after giving it once.  You are competing with a distraction and maybe by lowering your voice the shift of interest will be made......not that I do this. 

Mudpuppy, I don't think you answered the question of WHY.  You say don't add emphasis to your command because it is a lure or it won't lead to successful training.  That could be a fact, a true fact, but it does not explain the WHY. 

Chuffy

I would also like clarification here...

When I house train I say "CLEAN dog! CLEAN puppy!" instead of "good boy/good dog", ever since I knew a dog that learned to potty on cue when told "good boy"!  DPU - is this the sort of thing you mean?

The comment that there may be only one way to praise a dog really blew my mind.  There are so many different ways from using your voice, touch, or body language.  And for each way, the dog assigns the value.

Chuffy, yes, that is one way, but I have often use "Pretty"....has more facial expression that come with using that word.

Chuffy

[I don't understand this comment?  YOU may be nuetral, the DOG may be "neutral" but your behaviour (witholding of petting and praise) is negative punishment.  Negative does NOT equal stress inducing.  Punishment does not equal stress inducing.  I did not assume there was any stress induced.  So what is your point? I'm confused!

The command did not register so there can't be any interaction between the human and dog....so how can get there be anything positive or negative?

Because Negative = Something taken away/witheld.  You have withheld that particular sort of affection and "saved" it for when the dog has "come" to you. 

You are thinking of positive/negative in terms of value or emotion, where in truth they simply relate to whether the behaviour is adding something to the environment, or taking/keeping something from the environment.

Chuffy

Because Negative = Something taken away/witheld.  You have withheld that particular sort of affection and "saved" it for when the dog has "come" to you. 

You are thinking of positive/negative in terms of value or emotion, where in truth they simply relate to whether the behaviour is adding something to the environment, or taking/keeping something from the environment.

Excellent post. You rock ...

Chuffy

Because Negative = Something taken away/witheld.  You have withheld that particular sort of affection and "saved" it for when the dog has "come" to you. 

The dog is on one side of the world and I am on the other side of the world.  I say COME and get no response, how in the world can I add or take something away from the dog.   The dog simply did not hear the command.  I really don't understand where you are going with.  I want to achieve a stress-free interactions with my dogs and I believe that is the definition of Purely Positive Dog Training and I am hoping it is attainable. 

DPU

I say COME and get no response, how in the world can I add or take something away from the dog.   The dog simply did not hear the command. 

Dogs do not understand English, or Swahili, or Farsi, or Ukrainian or (pick a language). Granted, it is possible to link a word, purely as a sound with a behavior, at least in our minds, but it doesn't necessarily mean the dog links it. What is the dog's motivation to come to you? There is a motivation, even if it's just curiosity. Or the dog wants attention, or food. If the dog just walks by you and on to point B, that's not a recall. What reason does the dog have for coming to you? Even if it's just to belong with you, that is a motivation and the inclusion with you is the reward. You have just used a reward to train a response that you later put on cue. And that works if that dog's highest reward is inclusion. My dog values steak.

DPU

The dog simply did not hear the command

LOL!

And for each way, the dog assigns the value.

Glad you finally admitted that a reinforcer is anything the dog wants.  Shadow is in the majority - most dogs prefer steak to a pat on the head.  If you think your dogs prefer attention, that's very nice, but I would try calling them when a person right next to you is reeking of liverwurst and see what happens... 

spiritdogs

Shadow is in the majority - most dogs prefer steak to a pat on the head.  If you think your dogs prefer attention, that's very nice, but I would try calling them when a person right next to you is reeking of liverwurst and see what happens... 

Most dogs prefer steak as their dinner and most dogs prefer a pat on the head when they are interacting with the human.  Isn't dog training purely an interaction between the dog and the human.  So you see your comment on liverwurst does not really fit, now does it.

ron2

Dogs do not understand English, or Swahili, or Farsi, or Ukrainian or (pick a language). Granted, it is possible to link a word, purely as a sound with a behavior, at least in our minds, but it doesn't necessarily mean the dog links it. What is the dog's motivation to come to you? There is a motivation, even if it's just curiosity. Or the dog wants attention, or food. If the dog just walks by you and on to point B, that's not a recall. What reason does the dog have for coming to you? Even if it's just to belong with you, that is a motivation and the inclusion with you is the reward. You have just used a reward to train a response that you later put on cue. And that works if that dog's highest reward is inclusion. My dog values steak.

In the content of Purely Positive Dog Training, that fits and I do not see where I stated anything different.  Maybe because I said the dog will naturally come to me and I my best guess for doing so is the belongingness need. 

Now when you talk about steak, isn't there a taint of lure in that, and Mudpuppy says that is big no no although she has not stated why.

Most dogs prefer steak as their dinner and most dogs prefer a pat on the head when they are interacting with the human. 

How do we know this is true?

This isn't really a reply to nfowler.  :)

but I would try calling them when a person right next to you is reeking of liverwurst and see what happens...

I would be distracted by liverwurst!  I miss liverwurst . . .

If I lure a dog with steak, that's not going to have much effect.  But if I associated "come" with steak, or liverwurst, or kidney pie, then kept doing that for a while, then the dog will "come" of his own will, no stress involved, just a decision to come and see whether the yummy happens again.

I love the example of the pay telephone.  You walk by one day, stick your finger in, and there's a quarter someone left behind!  Cool!  Every time you pass that phone, for a long time, you'll stick your finger in the change return slot.  In fact, you'll most likely stick your finger in everything that looks like a change slot for a while. 

If you even get even one "return" on your effort, you'll be that more obsessive about checking candy machines, pay phones, even the self-service checkouts.  One more and you will probably be hooked for life.  It's not that quarters are so wonderful - the idea of something nice for very little effort is really reinforcing.  Our brains are set up to respond to little nudges almost better than the big ones.

Some dogs don't make the connection quickly because they have to be taught to learn.  I get dogs in here that are spoiled and practically wild - they've never been taught to how to fit in a household - or how to be anything but completely in charge.  It would be like if you came here from Mars and didn't know what a pay phone was.  You could walk by a million of them and never get the notion to stick your finger in the slot (assuming you had fingers).  

I start with these dogs one-on-one for a little while, until they start "seeing" me - really looking to a human for the first time in their lives.  Then I do off leash training (R+, R-, and a teeny bit P-), and then I do a bit of clicker training with some dogs, to get the training relationship going.

Excellent post. You rock ...

Yeah.  

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The dog is on one side of the world and I am on the other side of the world.  I say COME and get no response, how in the world can I add or take something away from the dog.   The dog simply did not hear the command.  I really don't understand where you are going with.

DPU, the dog is not one the other side of the world and if he were you would not be interacting with him , calling him, petting/praising him etc.  He is the other side of your yard.  You are carefully ignoring the fact that it need not be TAKING something away from the dog... it can be simply witholding something.  Why do you think the dog did not hear the command?  He is on the other side of your yard; do you know how sensitive dogs' ears are?

I am not "going" anywhere with this.  I am merely explaining to you the words used, across the board, to describe what you do when training dogs.  I didn't make the words up, nor did I assign the meanings... just using widely accepted terms already in place.