Myth of Purely Positive Dog Training

DPU

spiritdogs

Shadow is in the majority - most dogs prefer steak to a pat on the head.  If you think your dogs prefer attention, that's very nice, but I would try calling them when a person right next to you is reeking of liverwurst and see what happens... 

Most dogs prefer steak as their dinner and most dogs prefer a pat on the head when they are interacting with the human.  Isn't dog training purely an interaction between the dog and the human.  So you see your comment on liverwurst does not really fit, now does it.

Interesting, but the training is not something the dog feels a "need" for, like he does food, or belonging.  We train because WE know the dog needs it, and also possibly because WE want to; WE like it.  The dog likely won't care if he never learns "sit" in his life.

DPU, food is the primary reinforcer for most dogs.  Historically, dogs that did what "worked" to get them food survived to breed.  "Belonging" is also a strong reinforcer because dogs that did what worked to allow them to "belong" also had an advantage in the "survival" race.  But dogs that didn't belong wouldn't necessarily die, as those without food surely would.  Therefore MOST dogs will be descendants of dogs who were strongly motivated by food and are extremely likely to have those traits themselves.

Chuffy

Interesting, but the training is not something the dog feels a "need" for, like he does food, or belonging.  We train because WE know the dog needs it, and also possibly because WE want to; WE like it.  The dog likely won't care if he never learns "sit" in his life.

DPU, food is the primary reinforcer for most dogs.  Historically, dogs that did what "worked" to get them food survived to breed.  "Belonging" is also a strong reinforcer because dogs that did what worked to allow them to "belong" also had an advantage in the "survival" race.  But dogs that didn't belong wouldn't necessarily die, as those without food surely would.  Therefore MOST dogs will be descendants of dogs who were strongly motivated by food and are extremely likely to have those traits themselves.

Training is a social event, lessons in language, and a way of creating order for both the human and dog's life.  I look at this human-dog interaction as accomodations being made from both sides.

I think you and I are out of sync because you jumped to the future.  So far, in this discussion I am only at placing meaning to the word Come. I stated the dog naturally comes to me and it is at this time there are two cues I am introducing to the dog.  I said I test the cue and if I get no reaction that could mean the command has not registered.....why.....the dog did not hear, there are competing distractions, or the dog has not yet learned the cue.  At this point I believe everything so far is Purely Positive.

I would love to move to the next stage where I think you are and discuss the point where the dog has learned the cue and weaker and stronger distractions are introduced.  This is the tricky part and so far I have only achieved to minimize those things that does not make the procedure Pure Positive.  But I think a discussion would trigger new ideas.

DPU

Training is a social event, lessons in language, and a way of creating order for both the human and dog's life.  I look at this human-dog interaction as accomodations being made from both sides.

Well, yeah. 

DPU

I think you and I are out of sync because you jumped to the future.  So far, in this discussion I am only at placing meaning to the word Come. I stated the dog naturally comes to me and it is at this time there are two cues I am introducing to the dog.  I said I test the cue and if I get no reaction that could mean the command has not registered.....why.....the dog did not hear, there are competing distractions, or the dog has not yet learned the cue.  At this point I believe everything so far is Purely Positive.

No, I have not "jumped to the future".  If the dog doesn't come, you think, oh maybe he didn't hear, wasn't listening, didn't understand yet, not enough repetitions of me saying "come" when he is already coming, etc.  HOWEVER that does not change the fact that you don't then walk up to the dog and pet/praise JUST as you would have done if the dog had come to you.  This is negative punishment.  

If by Purely Positive you mean the kindest, fairest possible way of shaping the dogs behaviour, with the minimum of stress or aversives then I would agree that this is probably the case. 

But as the quote says in the OP, all aversives are not created equal.  Negative punishment is an aversive.  It can be an extraordinarily mild one, as in your case, but it is still something the dog wishes to avoid in future.  To put it another way: he would much rather have your praise and attention than not and shapes his behaviour accordingly. 

Chuffy

DPU, food is the primary reinforcer for most dogs.  Historically, dogs that did what "worked" to get them food survived to breed.  "Belonging" is also a strong reinforcer because dogs that did what worked to allow them to "belong" also had an advantage in the "survival" race.  But dogs that didn't belong wouldn't necessarily die, as those without food surely would.  Therefore MOST dogs will be descendants of dogs who were strongly motivated by food and are extremely likely to have those traits themselves.

Food is a reinforcer because the dog Wants it and it satisfies a Need.  That Need comes and goes.  Why use it where there is no Need?  Belongingness is 24/7, that is how it seems to me.  My pack, even the new fosters wants to be together all the time.  I see how strong that Need is because when given the opportunity to garbage raid or countersurf, the dog choses to stay with the group.

Food is strongly connected to life or death, without it there is a certain outcome within a specific time.  That is why it is a lower need and there is such a great urgency to satisfy that Need, IMO.  Belongingness is higher level need, a more complex need and a place where I think the dog learns best by using reinforcements that tightens bonds.

Chuffy

No, I have not "jumped to the future".  If the dog doesn't come, you think, oh maybe he didn't hear, wasn't listening, didn't understand yet, not enough repetitions of me saying "come" when he is already coming, etc.  HOWEVER that does not change the fact that you don't then walk up to the dog and pet/praise JUST as you would have done if the dog had come to you.  This is negative punishment.  

Ah, I think I see what you are saying now.  If I place the word Come in the air, then the dog should get rewarded in order to establish something good whenever the command is spoken.  Is that right? 

ron2

Dogs do not understand English, or Swahili, or Farsi, or Ukrainian or (pick a language). Granted, it is possible to link a word, purely as a sound with a behavior, at least in our minds, but it doesn't necessarily mean the dog links it.

My experience is raising a deaf pup that grew up to be 185 pounds.  We communicated because I took the language that I know, translated it into hand signals, and the dog understood.  What sealed it for me is the dog could communicate with anyone so long as the human knew ASL.  The dog could not communicate back in the same way because it was physically impossible to do.  So I had to learn the dog's form of ASL.

DPU

Is that right?

Nope.

DPU

Chuffy

DPU, food is the primary reinforcer for most dogs.  Historically, dogs that did what "worked" to get them food survived to breed.  "Belonging" is also a strong reinforcer because dogs that did what worked to allow them to "belong" also had an advantage in the "survival" race.  But dogs that didn't belong wouldn't necessarily die, as those without food surely would.  Therefore MOST dogs will be descendants of dogs who were strongly motivated by food and are extremely likely to have those traits themselves.

Food is a reinforcer because the dog Wants it and it satisfies a Need.  That Need comes and goes. 

Dogs, along with all other canines are opportunistic hunters.  This means that they are always on the lookout for food.  Birds of prey, cats and snakes are not opportunistic hunters.  They spend much of the time resting and a little of their time hunting and eating to satisfy a need. 

DPU

Chuffy

No, I have not "jumped to the future".  If the dog doesn't come, you think, oh maybe he didn't hear, wasn't listening, didn't understand yet, not enough repetitions of me saying "come" when he is already coming, etc.  HOWEVER that does not change the fact that you don't then walk up to the dog and pet/praise JUST as you would have done if the dog had come to you.  This is negative punishment.  

Ah, I think I see what you are saying now.  If I place the word Come in the air, then the dog should get rewarded in order to establish something good whenever the command is spoken.  Is that right? 

No.  The way you are already doing it is quite correct.   It involves positive reinforcement (praise, petting) when the dog comes to you, and negative punishment (absence of praise, petting) when the dog does NOT come.

IMO it is certainly better to reinforce each time the dog comes, but wait until the dog is coming to you frequently for praise/petting before adding the word "come".  This means it is easier to put the action (coming to you) on cue.  It also means that occasions where you say "come" and the dog doesn't are rare/non existant, which means the dog can't learn that he can ignore the cue.

Chuffy

Dogs, along with all other canines are opportunistic hunters.  This means that they are always on the lookout for food.  Birds of prey, cats and snakes are not opportunistic hunters.  They spend much of the time resting and a little of their time hunting and eating to satisfy a need. 

I don't have any "hunters" here.  I do have opportunist here that will look for every chance to interact with me and members of the pack, mostly for play.  As I have stated time and time again, there is an open bag of dog food available to the dogs for their taking any time they want. 

 That doesn't change the nature of the beast, DPU.  All canines are classed as "opportunistic hunters".  Most pet dogs won't actually HUNT in the conventional sense, but they will certainly be on the lookout for any food that happens their way. 

I think you underestimate the influence that your stable dogs, Drizzle in particular, has over new dogs coming into your house.  Should you start over, with no "pack" and just one new dog or puppy.... you might find yourself having to do something about that bag of food  

DPU

Why use it where there is no Need?  Belongingness is 24/7, that is how it seems to me. 

Allow me to introduce you to Shadow. An opportunistic hunter who will do the Nutcracker Suite for a treat, who will hunt and eat cotton rats, even though he doesn't lack for food, including tasty bits of cooked meat.

He works for the treats because they mean something to him as a reward in spite of the fact that he may have eaten until satisfied an hour earlier. He hunts rodents because that's what dogs do. They are scavengers and opportunistic hunters but they don't bring down large prey. Shadow once met two cows and he didn't stay around them very long.

And if I used a piece of grilled pork chop to lure his recall and that placed stress upon him, so be it. Recall, like eating food, can be a matter of life and death. I think the stress of recalling to me for my excellent cooking skills is a stress he can handle better than maybe punishing him for something he doesn't understand and I think it's less stressful than him blindly offering behaviors in the hopes that one gets rewarded. In my way, there is no question, hence less stress, that recalling to me is the greatest thing since smelly liver. If the motivation of most dogs is to find food, I am the reward for following that motivation. Eventually, the behavior of recalling will become an automatic response, pavlovian, if you will. At some point in time, the dog no longer has to think "recall = drippy roast beef." He just does it because it is now a "subconscious" equation.

Awwwwe, you remember one of my dogs name is Drizzle.  Thank you.

Ok, in the first stage of teaching the new dog the recall I am still maintaining Purely Positve Dog Training (no testing of the command or making a request).  I need to teach the dog its name so when I say Name Come, the right dog comes to me and the other dogs stays put or continue what they are doing.  I am not sure exactly how I accomplish this other than to keep casually repeating the name while I interact.  What I have going for me is that every new dog without exception will follow me around the house and keep a watchful eye on me.  A cough, a sneeze, a yawn, any movement by me will make the dog look at me.  I don't say the dog's name prior to interacting, only during.  So, in this third command request, I am still doing Purely Positive Dog Training. 

I do the same when teaching a cue for "hurry up" (toileting).  I say it only AS the dog is already going, and then follow it up with praise and petting, maybe a special treat if I have one on me.  After a few days I can say the cue and the dog... goes.  There is no consequence if the dog DOESN'T potty... except that the special treat stays in my pocket this time.  If that happens I just know I need to spend more time on the "association" stage.

ron2

He just does it because it is now a "subconscious" equation.

And that is the results from which there are many ways to get there.  Your choice of teaching should be most influenced by your knowledge of the dog and in the absence of that knowledge, its best to proceed with a way that won't bring out other behavior issues within the dog or diminish trust.  I always have a new dog in my house and that dog is learning the recall.  It is the only command that I work on from day one.  If you think about it, we are training our dogs at a time when we know the least about the dog and the trust/bond relationship is at its lowest.  As Corvus would say, you haven't made many deposits in the bank to cover the withdrawals.  So for me the order and rightful place of things is important as wel as building a relationship.  Everything I do will add to the trust bank and that includes keeping food in the food dish so the dog can count on that.  In teaching recall, you have to be recollecting from years ago and since that time, your training philosphy has changed.  Are you sure that is the way you taught Shadow recall?

So pick a segment of training a command that clearly has a conflict present and give us an idea on how to accomplish that segment in a Purely Positive way.