Sounds about right to me.  So what would be a good term to use?  We can coin a new term for trainers that use mostly positive reinforcement or believe in PR over PP.

"Primarily positive trainer"

"Rewards based trainer"

"PR and NP trainer"

 I simply say that I am a reward-based, motivational dog trainer. Nothing wrong with rewarding or motivation, nor does it imply that I'm some extremist from the purely positive mindset that would never ever correct a dog in its life. :p But, I'm sure if "purely positive" trainers joined in labeling themselves reward-based or motivational, those terms may also eventually become a negative connotation simply because all they are is renaming their purely positive mindset to a term that doesn't yet have that negative connotation.

 Mostly, I simply think more trainers need to actually understand that they are NOT "purely positive". There are many trainers out there today that truly believe they are purely positive trainers.
 

Your avatar is a dog's nose.  I could not see it until now.

DPU

Your avatar is a dog's nose.  I could not see it until now.

Yes it is. :D 

tashakota

Sounds about right to me.  So what would be a good term to use?  We can coin a new term for trainers that use mostly positive reinforcement or believe in PR over PP.

"Primarily positive trainer"

"Rewards based trainer"

"PR and NP trainer"

 

What was that one taht was floating around a while ago... Least Invasive, Minimally Aversive? LIMA. 

I think most people THINK they are being... LIMA....though.  Surely if you thought you were being harsher than necessary you would take a step back and re-think?  I think, the trouble is no what they label themselves, but that they insist on labelling everyone else!

- - -

I agree that the "purely positive" thing IS a myth... can't think of a single person here who professes to be purely positive though.  The closest would be spiritdogs, who has said many times that she uses corrections.... but starts with the most gentle method and works up.  The other name that springs to mind would be mudpuppy, who uses e-collars for proofing recall unless I am mistaken, and has also recommended environmental punishment, although not owner-delivered punishment.

So, would anyone else like to join in as we sing to the choir?
 

 What key would you like?

Just stepping in to say that, while I use corrections, I use those that have been shown to have little to no tendency to cause pain or anxiety to the dogs.  For example, I don't think it's a bad thing to place a sheet of tin foil on a couch to teach a dog that the couch isn't the best resting place, whether the owner is home or not.  But, if you asked me whether I would use a scat mat for the same purpose, which delivers a shock to the dog, however slight, the answer is no. 

A big sheet of card, with tape wound round it sticky side out, can also be effective, albeit for a short period of time.  As can wire mesh or any surface which is generally unpleasant enough that the dog doesn't want to transfer his weight on to it. 

spiritdogs

 What key would you like?

...while I use corrections, I use those that have been shown to have little to no tendency to cause pain or anxiety to the dogs. 

You see the line is really blurred between the traditional way and the positive way, just a different take and justfication to continue human dominance and trickery on the dog.  I rehab the hard to place shelter dogs and I observe very closely how training methods cause stress that results in behavior problems arising.  There are ways to get a very well mannered and behaved dog by not introducing stress and conflicts.  I have come up with a few and will continue to seek alternative ways.  My thinking is that if a professional dog trainers were really serious about understanding dog behavior they would deal on a day to day basis with the problem/issue dogs that are in the shelters.  So much can be learned from these dogs to help the average dog owner's pet.

DPU

You see the line is really blurred between the traditional way and the positive way, just a different take and justfication to continue human dominance and trickery on the dog. 

I don't believe I "dominate" or "trick" my dog.  I empower him by showing him ways to get the things he wants/needs... and displaying appropriate hebavhiours in the process.

DPU

I rehab the hard to place shelter dogs and I observe very closely how training methods cause stress that results in behavior problems arising. 

You say this sort of thing quite often and while it sounds very impressive, I don't actually have any idea what you are realy talking about.  I would be interested in the specifics.  What behaviour problems have arisen from which training methods?   

DPU

My thinking is that if a professional dog trainers were really serious about understanding dog behavior they would deal on a day to day basis with the problem/issue dogs that are in the shelters.

What makes you so fast to assume they don't?!

DPU

So much can be learned from these dogs to help the average dog owner's pet.

I do agree with you on this score. 

Chuffy

I don't believe I "dominate" or "trick" my dog.  I empower him by showing him ways to get the things he wants/needs... and displaying appropriate hebavhiours in the process.

If I read your post correctly, you empower the dog by conflict choices and limiting choices to human preferences.  When there is conflict, there is stress, and where there is stress, then stress hormones are released which puts the dog on edge (some interpret this as increased motivation).  Those hormones are present in the body for days and with repeated exposure to conflict situations, more stress hormones are released so the dog becomes more sensitve to events that it previously handled well. 

For me I empower a new dog entering my home by giving the dog a long acclimation period and gradually introduce human preference choices by controlling the dog's exposure to events.  e.g the dog has to get acclimated and behave on the property before the dog ventures out off the property to go for walks in the neighborhood.  Only a Purely Positive Dog Training can help the dog get balanced....conflict choices makes these dog worse in my experience.

DPU

e.g the dog has to get acclimated and behave on the property before the dog ventures out off the property to go for walks in the neighborhood. 

I don't see how you are getting a well behaved dog and equating that with a never stressed dog.  As soon as you introduce something new you have the potential for the dog to be stressed by it.  You are never going to be able to control every aspect of a dogs life so they are never stressed. 

willowchow

You are never going to be able to control every aspect of a dogs life so they are never stressed. 

True, my idea is avoid or minimize.  For a dog that is in rehab, careful observation is needed to detect when stress levels are elevating.  When that happens I give the dog what it wants and then take a step backwards because the dog was not ready for the exposure.  Stress hormones released are good for the dog but not in abundance.  The goal is to get the dog to be able to cope with conflict situation, as you might say, conflict situations are part of every day life.

DPU

Chuffy

I don't believe I "dominate" or "trick" my dog.  I empower him by showing him ways to get the things he wants/needs... and displaying appropriate hebavhiours in the process.

If I read your post correctly, you empower the dog by conflict choices and limiting choices to human preferences. 

First you would have to tell me what you mean by "conflict choices and limiting choices to human preferences".  THEN I can tell you whether you read it corrcetly or not.  Where there is conflict?  Why does it cause stress?  

DPU

For me I empower a new dog entering my home by giving the dog a long acclimation period and gradually introduce human preference choices by controlling the dog's exposure to events.  e.g the dog has to get acclimated and behave on the property before the dog ventures out off the property to go for walks in the neighborhood. 

Here again we are in agreement.  I also allow a period of acclimation, but this doesn't mean I set no rules whatsoever.  Example: I want the pee outside.  If I let the dog pee wherever he likes for a few weeks, it will then be much harder to teach him where I want him to eliminate.  But I achive the "pee in right place" by management - just mking sure that when the dog is likely to need to go, he is outdoors.  I think this is what you mean by "controlling exposure to events"?  

DPU

Only a Purely Positive Dog Training can help the dog get balanced....

I highly doubt such a thing exists.  How do you train "sit", for example?  Surely you reward and praise the dog when he "sits" for you, so that he will keep on doing it?  Do you then reward and praise if he doesn't sit, just the same as if he did, to ensure that there is no "conflict", no "witholding" of any sort?  I am puzled.

Chuffy

I highly doubt such a thing exists. 

If Purely Positive training does not exist for you, then Negatives have to be in play while training, hence a conflict, opposing emotions, pretty obvious and self evident to me.