Myth of Purely Positive Dog Training

DPU

When there is conflict, there is stress, and where there is stress, then stress hormones are released which puts the dog on edge (some interpret this as increased motivation).  Those hormones are present in the body for days and with repeated exposure to conflict situations, more stress hormones are released so the dog becomes more sensitve to events that it previously handled well. 

I've seen studies on the deleterious side effects of shock collar training on dogs. Dogs have been damaged physical by the contact points of the collar and psychologically damaged and there is even some evidence of irreversible brain alteration. But I have not seen a study on what kind of stress hormones are released in a dog with rewards training and you are the first person I have seen to call it a conflict issue. Perhaps you have a study we can read that would explain that. For some reason, I'm not getting it from your description. Also, what would be the model or study upon which is based the notion that affection is the highest need in the pet and therefore is the surest way to behavior mod? Wild canids cooperate because doing so increases the chance of a successful hunt, which is rewarding, by way of survival. Even those rascally wild canids do what works. How about dogs? The dog wants the reward, whatever that may be, affection, belonging, or a tasty treat, and does whatever you ask to get it. How is that different from fitting in a group of other canids in order to successfully hunt? Both activities do relate to survival. IMO.

ron2

But I have not seen a study on what kind of stress hormones are released in a dog with rewards training and you are the first person I have seen to call it a conflict issue. Perhaps you have a study we can read that would explain that. For some reason, I'm not getting it from your description. Also, what would be the model or study upon which is based the notion that affection is the highest need in the pet and therefore is the surest way to behavior mod?

Although studies and research help the one understand without having first hand experience, when my observations go unexplained or the explainations don't fit, I continue to explore, the shelter dog's rehab and successful placement depends on it.  I admit my ideas on stress hormones, conflict situation, and needs are my own thinking from what I see and my experiences includes some really hard cases that I was determined to overcome.  In the rehab process, many tries with failures and finally successes and I do try and understand what I did to get the successes.

Here is a link that talks about stress hormones in reference to Turid Rugaas work.  I was surprised to see some of my other observation in this write up.  I have Turid's books but have not read them.  When her dvd becomes available, I will get them.  I am sure now that there are others that support my thinking.

http://coherentdog.org/vek/stressdown.php

Also, review Ian Dunbar's video that Spiritdogs posted in that other thread.  The example presented on owner's come command versus the dog continuing to sniff other dogs is an example of a conflict situation.  Even Dunbar's recommended  training to overcome environmental pulls by using the Premack's Principle starts out with a conflict situation to get the desired results.

DPU

spiritdogs

 What key would you like?

...while I use corrections, I use those that have been shown to have little to no tendency to cause pain or anxiety to the dogs. 

You see the line is really blurred between the traditional way and the positive way, just a different take and justfication to continue human dominance and trickery on the dog.  I rehab the hard to place shelter dogs and I observe very closely how training methods cause stress that results in behavior problems arising.  There are ways to get a very well mannered and behaved dog by not introducing stress and conflicts.  I have come up with a few and will continue to seek alternative ways.  My thinking is that if a professional dog trainers were really serious about understanding dog behavior they would deal on a day to day basis with the problem/issue dogs that are in the shelters.  So much can be learned from these dogs to help the average dog owner's pet.

Um, so what makes you think trainers don't deal on a day to day basis with problem dogs that are in shelters?  A lot of trainers work in high volume open admission shelters, and do that every day.  And, where do you think the problem dogs from the not-so-lucky shelters, that don't have behavior programs, go?  They end up in classes or behavior consultations with - yup, trainers.  Gimme a break.  If I had a nickel for every rescuer who knows squat about behavior and training, I'd be a rich person.  If I had a nickel for every rescuer that does know about those things, I'd also be a rich person.  You don't get a halo with me just for being a rescuer.  Everyone, from the vets, to the techs, to the trainers, to the rescuers, to the dog walkers, to the groomers, to the fosterers - every pet professional or average Joe who contributes to the rehabilitation of, or the saving of, a dog deserves credit.  None is more or less important than the other to the dog that needs them. 

I noticed in the page you linked, Rugaas delineates between good stress and bad stress. Are you then saying positive training is not good stress? I don't buy the conflict idea, by the way. The dog wants the reward. The behaivor is offered the reward is given, no conflict. Just because Marvin could offer behaviors faster than most dogs does not mean that reward training is full of conflict and deprivation.

How come this paragraph did make the lightbulb burn brighter. 

"While it is true that dogs and humans share many emotional qualities, we humans cannot presume to detect, by examining our own thinking, just what it is that dogs are thinking. Dogs give us ample evidence that some of their thoughts do not match our human ones."

Just because it makes you happy to give a reward does not mean the dog reciprocates that feeling.  The dog may feel "its about time you gave my deserved treat, you slowpoke, chomp, chomp".  You guys shout the importance of timing between the offerred behavior and treating-significant to establishing the marker, well that time, that wait period could be the source of stress.  Prove it by intentional teasing a dog for a long time by dangling a roast beef over the dog's head.  Shorten the time of the tangling and tell me when is the precise time the dog does not feel stress. 

Don't need you to buy the conflict idea....it is reality and to not buy is denial, for what reason, I don't know.

DPU

Shorten the time of the tangling and tell me when is the precise time the dog does not feel stress. 

So, then you make sure that every single second that any dog wants something they get it at the precise second.  What if they want something and you aren't home?  They need to also learn patience and self control--not just give me this now, hurry up.

spiritdogs

Um, so what makes you think trainers don't deal on a day to day basis with problem dogs that are in shelters?  A lot of trainers work in high volume open admission shelters, and do that every day.  And, where do you think the problem dogs from the not-so-lucky shelters, that don't have behavior programs, go?  They end up in classes or behavior consultations with - yup, trainers.  Gimme a break.  If I had a nickel for every rescuer who knows squat about behavior and training, I'd be a rich person.  If I had a nickel for every rescuer that does know about those things, I'd also be a rich person.  You don't get a halo with me just for being a rescuer.  Everyone, from the vets, to the techs, to the trainers, to the rescuers, to the dog walkers, to the groomers, to the fosterers - every pet professional or average Joe who contributes to the rehabilitation of, or the saving of, a dog deserves credit.  None is more or less important than the other to the dog that needs them. 

Whoa, DPU. Sometimes your posts say a lot more about you than the person you're responding to.

DPU

You guys shout the importance of timing between the offerred behavior and treating-significant to establishing the marker, well that time, that wait period could be the source of stress. 

That's why I use a clicker. My hand eye coordination is quicker than my speech pattern being a "Man from the South," and quicker than I can get over there to give affection, or treat, or whatever. So, I can't see where there's enough time between completed behavior and click to create stress. And I don't see how the prediction of a reward by a click or other marker can be anything but "good stress", ala Rugaas.

DPU

Don't need you to buy the conflict idea....it is reality and to not buy is denial,

No, it's not, and no, it's not. So, we shall disagree. I simply have science in my corner. My bad.

ron2

I simply have science in my corner. My bad.

Whew!  thank goodness my dogs have not studied your science and they sure feel happy and really behave well once stress is eliminated or minimized in their house.  Frankly, it is not that much to ask for people to try and recognize conflict situations because they really do cause stress and give rise to peculiar behavior.  Some dogs or maybe most dog handle it well but for those that are sensitive it can really can hurt or at a minimum prolong behavior modification and worst of all hurt the human-dog relationship.  For me, I will always be watching for these conflict and avoid as much as I can.  I will continue to build a solid foundation in the dog where the dog's needs are met, the dog wants are under control, and its behavior is acceptable....all this without training or behavior modification techniques.  In other words the dog will be prepared for the conflicts that awaits, beit reward-withholding, NILIF, or punishment training.  Purely Positive Training can exist.

DPU

and its behavior is acceptable....all this without training or behavior modification techniques. 

How do you get acceptable behavior if you aren't doing any training or behavior modification unless the dog doesn't have any issues to begin with. 

And how is no training or behavior modification techniuques "purely postive"? It sounds like neither positive or negative since nothing is being done.

The example presented on owner's come command versus the dog continuing to sniff other dogs is an example of a conflict situation. 

it's not. If you trained the dog to come when called PROPERLY by the time the dog gets into this situation there is no conflict- the dog wants to come to the owner when called far more than the dog wants to do anything else. That's the entire point of positive training- you gradually shape the dog's behavior. No stress, no conflicts.

mudpuppy

The example presented on owner's come command versus the dog continuing to sniff other dogs is an example of a conflict situation. 

it's not. If you trained the dog to come when called PROPERLY by the time the dog gets into this situation there is no conflict- the dog wants to come to the owner when called far more than the dog wants to do anything else. That's the entire point of positive training- you gradually shape the dog's behavior. No stress, no conflicts.

I agree with you Mudpuppy and what you are describing is the finished polished results of training.  For every end there has to be a beginning.  While the dog is learning recall, how do you avoid the conflict, the stress, as one dog behavior (ei the recall) strengthens over dog butt sniffs? 

Me personally - I never "recall" a dog if I think there may be a conflict between coming to me and doing something else.  I walk up and collect him calmly.  I only use the recall in gradually more distracting situations.  Sometimes I've misjudged it and the dog doesn't come, in which case I run away and hide.... which isn't worth relying on as it doesnt necessarily work for all breeds/dogs/situations.

My point being, you want the dog to be successful every time you recall him - you never ever want him to discover that he can simply ignore it.  Failure must be avoided at all costs because this is something which is extremely difficult - if not actually impossible - to punish. 

Chuffy

 

Me personally - I never "recall" a dog if I think there may be a conflict between coming to me and doing something else.  I walk up and collect him calmly.  I only use the recall in gradually more distracting situations.  Sometimes I've misjudged it and the dog doesn't come, in which case I run away and hide.... which isn't worth relying on as it doesnt necessarily work for all breeds/dogs/situations.

Sounds like Purely Positive Dog Training to me.  Avoidance of the conflict is desirable but practically, the dog does has to be exposed to the "something else" (hopefully in a controlled setting) in order to reasonably proof the recall.