Myth of Purely Positive Dog Training

But you work up to it as slowly and gradually as you can.  Not just to minimise conflict, but to maximise the chances of success for the dog.  Setting the dog up to succeed is what ALL of us are about , no matter what "camp" we are put in.

Maybe I was approaching the conflict word from the wrong angle because it's being used to berate, denigrate, and otherwise make appear useless or abusive the way that I train.

My goal in training recall is to make it the best thing in the world, where there is no conflict between the other stimulus and what I have to offer. And Ian Dunbar, among others, have suggested using the Premack Principle. If the dog is wanting to sniff the other dog, make that a reward for recall, which is something I have done. That way, that which he desires, even if it isn't food, becomes a reward for heeding me.

But I can see where one might see it as a conflict. Do I sniff that dog or do I recall? Well, by that time, you have already worked on recalls in less distracting situations, so the precedent exists for the dog that recalling to is always rewarding and they always get what they want. In fact, I have found motivational training to be about the resolution of conflict, the catalyst for it. The whole idea is to remove conflict from what you want and what the dog wants.

I think the use of the word "conflict" is erroneous when used to describe motivational training, judging by what I have read and seen from eminently qualified and experienced researchers and trainers, some of whom have been doing this for as long as I have been alive with two or three graduate degrees, to boot. Kind of like, I can read and spout what I know about canine physiology and biology but I'm going to refer to the advice of my vet who has, indeed, been a vet my entire life and I am approaching middle age, myself.

I think the dog can feel conflict when they are punished for something that they do not understand and so, at best, they can assume it was the last thing they did, which might have been looking at you. I think they might feel conflict if there is no direction for them and they decide for themselves and run into problems. They might feel conflict if all their life has been a struggle and then find themselves in a situation where one has no set of rules and then another is imposed and none of it matches their previous experience and there's no clear direction to reward or security except to take what they can.

Chuffy

But you work up to it as slowly and gradually as you can.  Not just to minimise conflict, but to maximise the chances of success for the dog.  Setting the dog up to succeed is what ALL of us are about , no matter what "camp" we are put in.

Maybe I am not understanding the maximising the chances of success.  In recall, my experience with any dog is that the dog will naturally come to me, be it for a little petting or just to see what I am up to.  I do this with every dog that comes here.  When I see the coming behavior, I gesture, smile, and as the dog gets close, I say COME, then pet (stroke) and praise.  To end the session, I pat the dog on the head and then go do something else, something the dog sees me do day in day out.  There are a lot of these beginning trials.  To do the "slowly and gradually", ei introduce distraction, I test the COME and if I get any reaction whatsoever, I praise at a distance.....this usually brings the dog over and then I repeat the beginning trials again.  If I don't get a reaction, I let it go and don't create a conflict situation by escalating my COME command by adding things like whistling, smooching sounds, or even changing my voice tone, and definitely not shouting.  If I did the latter part, is this maximising the chances of success?

DPU

If I don't get a reaction, I let it go and don't create a conflict situation by escalating my COME command by adding things like whistling, smooching sounds, or even changing my voice tone, and definitely not shouting.  If I did the latter part, is this maximising the chances of success?

Nope, maximizing the chance of success is normally not even asking the dog to do something if you know they won't at that moment.  

DPU

Chuffy

But you work up to it as slowly and gradually as you can.  Not just to minimise conflict, but to maximise the chances of success for the dog.  Setting the dog up to succeed is what ALL of us are about , no matter what "camp" we are put in.

Maybe I am not understanding the maximising the chances of success. 

OK

1.  (As willowchow said) Avoid calling the dog when it's likely he won't respond.

2. (As you said) Call the dog when he is already coming to you.  Initially I often only call the dog when he is almost at my feet!  After a few times I might call when he is further away, building up to a point where I can call when he has his head in a clump of grass, building up eventually to a point where I can call him when he has his nose up another dogs behind.

3.  Use insurance, especially when first trying out higher level dstractions.  Im talking about a long line.

When I see the coming behavior, I gesture, smile, and as the dog gets close, I say COME, then pet (stroke) and praise.  To end the session, I pat the dog on the head and then go do something else, something the dog sees me do day in day out.  There are a lot of these beginning trials.  To do the "slowly and gradually", ei introduce distraction, I test the COME and if I get any reaction whatsoever, I praise at a distance.....this usually brings the dog over and then I repeat the beginning trials again.  If I don't get a reaction, I let it go and don't create a conflict situation by escalating my COME command by adding things like whistling, smooching sounds, or even changing my voice tone, and definitely not shouting.  If I did the latter part, is this maximising the chances of success?

you're making the big mistake of putting the cue in there before the dog is reliable, as well as using luring with your gesturing. Have you watched Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall DVD?  I can assure you that she doesn't suggest whistling, smooching, shouting, or escalating the command and definitely NOT repeating the come command.

I really don't think you've grasped the concept of "shaping". You don't give the dog commands. There are no expectations at first. If the dog happens to do something you like, you reward. There's no stress put on the dog. To start off recall training, for example, you'd stroll calmly across the yard and if the dog came up to you you'd reward. After some time the dog would be coming up to you frequently of his own accord.

mudpuppy

and definitely NOT repeating the come command.

Hmm yeah I missed that bit.  I would NEVER recommend repeating that cue.  Say it once, dog zips towards you.  Every. Single. Time.  That's what you want to aim for.

DPU

If I don't get a reaction, I let it go

Does this mean you walk away and try again later?

There's negative punishment right there.  Absence of reward (in this case verbal/tactile, affection) because the dog didn't comply. 

mudpuppy

you're making the big mistake of putting the cue in there before the dog is reliable, as well as using luring with your gesturing. Have you watched Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall DVD?  I can assure you that she doesn't suggest whistling, smooching, shouting, or escalating the command and definitely NOT repeating the come command.

I really don't think you've grasped the concept of "shaping". You don't give the dog commands. There are no expectations at first. If the dog happens to do something you like, you reward. There's no stress put on the dog. To start off recall training, for example, you'd stroll calmly across the yard and if the dog came up to you you'd reward. After some time the dog would be coming up to you frequently of his own accord.

I don't think I am making a mistake.  As I said a dog will naturally come to its owner, consistently and reliably.  Thats the starting point.  I would not do any behavior that would appear to lure or put the dog in an excited mode.  Strolling across a yard has many meaning to the dog.  It could mean car ride, walk, play, in other words an unintentional lure.  I just chose to sit in the backyard and when the dog comes to me naturally, then I start the recall, an excellent starting point.

If you read my procedure closely, there are two lessons the dog is learning and I am distinguishing the behavior by the type of reward I am offering.  When the dog directs his attention my way (on its own) and starts the coming behavior, I gesture and I smile.  I am associating a hand signal, sign language if you may, with the behavior of coming toward me and rewarding with a smile.  I am observing the dog's behavior and at the same time, the dog is observing and understanding my behavior.  Its all good.  When the dog gets close, then I create the marker and give the dog a unique and distinct reward that will only be used for that marker.  Doesn't matter if the dog doesn't get the marker, there is no expectation and repetition will cause the dog to learn.  Later on the two lessons will be worked on separately because they have different purposes.

As I said in my post, when proofing the recall, I don't whistle, make smooching sounds, click my tongue, or shout.  Its even common sense not to repeat the come command.  I have not read or seen Leslie Neilson 'Really Reliable Recall' and it looks like I don't have to since I came up with this on my own. 

Mudpuppy, whats missing from your post is WHY don't you add value to the COME command by whistling, smooching, tongue clicking, shouting or saying the Come command more than once.

Chuffy

DPU

If I don't get a reaction, I let it go

 

Does this mean you walk away and try again later?

There's negative punishment right there.  Absence of reward (in this case verbal/tactile, affection) because the dog didn't comply. 

Dog is neutral to the cue and I am neutral to the dog's reaction or inaction by both of us.  I am quite aware of a dog's potential stress triggers.

DPU

Doesn't matter if the dog doesn't get the marker, there is no expectation and repetition will cause the dog to learn.

No expectation the first time, but what about the next time.

DPU

, the dog is observing and understanding my behavior.  Its all good. 

The dogs understand your smiling?  I don't know. . .

DPU

Mudpuppy, whats missing from your post is WHY don't you add value to the COME command by whistling, smooching, tongue clicking, shouting or saying the Come command more than once.

Because those things (bolded text) are luring the dog.  And saying the cue more than once is diluting the cue because the end goal is that you say it once and the dog comes.  

Saying a cue more than once to get a dog to do the behavior means that the dog does not fully understand the behavior.

When the dog gets close, then I create the marker and give the dog a unique and distinct reward that will only be used for that marker.

If you don't use food, how many different ways can you praise a dog?  Are you saying you withhold some forms of praise to be used only for certain instances?  Conflicting things from the person that withholds nothing.

DPU

Chuffy

DPU

If I don't get a reaction, I let it go

 

Does this mean you walk away and try again later?

There's negative punishment right there.  Absence of reward (in this case verbal/tactile, affection) because the dog didn't comply. 

Dog is neutral to the cue and I am neutral to the dog's reaction or inaction by both of us.  I am quite aware of a dog's potential stress triggers.

I don't understand this comment?  YOU may be nuetral, the DOG may be "neutral" but your behaviour (witholding of petting and praise) is negative punishment.  Negative does NOT equal stress inducing.  Punishment does not equal stress inducing.  I did not assume there was any stress induced.  So what is your point? I'm confused!

tashakota

When the dog gets close, then I create the marker and give the dog a unique and distinct reward that will only be used for that marker.

If you don't use food, how many different ways can you praise a dog?  Are you saying you withhold some forms of praise to be used only for certain instances?  Conflicting things from the person that withholds nothing.

I would also like clarification here...

When I house train I say "CLEAN dog! CLEAN puppy!" instead of "good boy/good dog", ever since I knew a dog that learned to potty on cue when told "good boy"!  DPU - is this the sort of thing you mean?