Anthropomorphism: beneficial to dogs or not. Why or why not?

 I'm going to respond directly to the OP first without reading the replies.

AuroraLove

The dogs that never get table scraps, never get to sleep inside, and get less attention dont crave it like our dogs do. Even the dogs retired to the house never beg as much as our dogs raised inside do, SO I've come to realize dogs have a sense of humbleness to them.

I think it has zip to do with being "humble".  You know what I think it is?  I think it's more a case of those dogs never got the opportunity to beg as puppies, so they don't do it as adults.  Simple. 

Begging, or other "spoilt" behaviours that you notice in your dogs are not a result of whether they live in or out.... they are purely and simply learned behaviours... either ones that they have enjoyed as youngsters (example: using the furniture or having the run of the house) and so continue doing, or ones that have worked to get them what they want (staring longingly at you while you eat). 

Dogs that balk at "begging" or using the furniture or don't swagger round the house like they own it have simply been trained or "groomed" (read: managed) that way.  In other words, they have either been taught NOT to do those things; they have been taught to do OTHER, incompatible things; or they have simply never had the opportunity to cultivate those habits.

This is why the usefulness of management of puppies and young dogs cannot be overstated IMO.

As for anthropomorphism... I think it is hugely beneficial to dogs, in the correct context.  First of all, I think it is important to have empathy for the dog.  Empathy starts with "you are like me" - and that is where anthropomorphising is massively important.

Secondly, the way we learn is very similar to doogs.  Some of the basic things we strive for are also very similar.  Food, sex and the need to belong and feel included.

Which brings me to my final point... allowing a dog into your house and sharing your space with him satisfies and basic need for the dog IMO.  It isn't possible for everyone all the time.  But to have that "shared-ness" is important I think.... important for the bond and important to the dog.

In THAT context, I don't believe anthropomorphising is doing the dog a disservice.

AuroraLove

I dislike it when owners feel bad about something and overcompensate for their guilt. Like " my dog is going to be mad that I was at the beach all day while other dogs were playing in the water and she was stuck at home"
or" Doggy saw another dog with a sweater on today and really wanted one so I bought her one too"!
Stuff like that irks me.

But this is not anthropomorphising IMO.  It is projecting... not just think that "dogs are like us", but that what YOU feel must be what the dog feels.  I dislike it too, because it is self indulgent and rather selfish.  It blinkers the person to what the dog REALLY needs from them.... they are so busy indulging in this projection that they don't take the time to REALLY empathise, walk a mile on their paws, listen to what they really need.  That IS doing the dog a disservice.

AuroraLove

but I do get a bit peeved when peopel tell me that there is no need to eat before I feed my dogs

Prepare to be peeved:

There is no need. 

I have tried it and it makes NO difference. 

I think this is interesting, because I see this sort of statement a lot, and many times I think that it in itself is anthropomorphising.  That's how WE think of a leader, so we project it on to them.  SOrt of the same with doors for some people - many humans think that a person who walks out "first" is "leader" and they project this onto the animal kingdom.  Often, in the animal kingdom, the "leaders" lead from the rear.... they "watch the group's back".

Sure, door manners are important.... but so are all manners.  If your "rule" was that the dog was to walk out ahead of you and sit to one side of the door waiting while you closed the door and locked it, I can GUARANTEE you that would JUST as effective.  You have a rule and you are enforcing it.  The dog is getting into the habit of listening to you and obeying, which means when you NEED him to at crucial moments.... that important skill is there and well honed.

If your rule is the dogs walk out AFTER you, that's fine too.. not better, not worse.  The important thing is that there ARE rules, they are consistent, the dogs know what they are and follow them.

DumDog

it depends. its not something i think on constantly, or fret over, or try to pound into other peoples heads because frankly its a waste of time...

my mother in law anthro's her 10 year old cat to death.... my FIL brought home a puppy a while back and supposedly the cat got upset and sulked so the puppy had to go away. i dont know HOW.... i didnt ask.

any time my husband and i bring over an animal (bunny, puppy etc) MIL freaks out FOR the cat..... we brought over a couple of baby bunnies once.. wanted to show them to her since she LIKES bunnies... ten minutes into the visit the cat walks in.. sees bunnies and just turns around and walks out of the house.... big deal.... yeah it was! MIL spent an HOUR searching for this cat. the more time that passed the more the panicked.. where was the cat? on the neighbours porch. exactly where i had seen her on previous visits, sans bunnies.

brought over a couple of pups once and MIL actually ran to get the cat, claiming she saw them - she didnt. the cat was in the garage, and the pups were hidden on the other side of her porch.... she grabbed the cat in her arms and almost ran onto the porch, looking around as if she expected a pack of pit bulls to come after her. THEN she locked the screen doors and the sliding door lol

 

This is more projecting I think.  This is how I feel, ergo you/they MUST feel the same way.  It indicates a severe lack IMO... the person is unable/unwilling to think "outside the box" - where the box is their own feelings and perceptions.  Doesn't leave much room for empathy.

Chuffy

Sure, door manners are important.... but so are all manners.  If your "rule" was that the dog was to walk out ahead of you and sit to one side of the door waiting while you closed the door and locked it, I can GUARANTEE you that would JUST as effective.  You have a rule and you are enforcing it.  The dog is getting into the habit of listening to you and obeying, which means when you NEED him to at crucial moments.... that important skill is there and well honed.

If your rule is the dogs walk out AFTER you, that's fine too.. not better, not worse.  The important thing is that there ARE rules, they are consistent, the dogs know what they are and follow them.

HHmm, good points all around! I guess I've found it easier to teach them to let me walk through first becasue the training method of it is easier having them under control behind me. Teaching them to walk outside and wait patiently by the door would be just as effective but not something I've ever thought about but I really like that idea. It would take a bit more patience on my part but thats ok. When DH opens the door Rory rushes over to the fence and jumps jumps jumps to see what is over it while he locks the door and such. It just bugs me to no end but they are working on it, LOL. But he still makes her sit and wait to be leashed by the gate. He lets her take advantage of him, I've been telling him to leash her prior to opening the door.

Another good point about a leader leading from behind and something I never noticed. Rory is allowed to out infront when she is off lead, granted she never ventures out to far but I've mentioned to DH many times that she walks so much better off leash.

HHMM, very thought provoking!

Chuffy

DumDog

it depends. its not something i think on constantly, or fret over, or try to pound into other peoples heads because frankly its a waste of time...

my mother in law anthro's her 10 year old cat to death.... my FIL brought home a puppy a while back and supposedly the cat got upset and sulked so the puppy had to go away. i dont know HOW.... i didnt ask.

any time my husband and i bring over an animal (bunny, puppy etc) MIL freaks out FOR the cat..... we brought over a couple of baby bunnies once.. wanted to show them to her since she LIKES bunnies... ten minutes into the visit the cat walks in.. sees bunnies and just turns around and walks out of the house.... big deal.... yeah it was! MIL spent an HOUR searching for this cat. the more time that passed the more the panicked.. where was the cat? on the neighbours porch. exactly where i had seen her on previous visits, sans bunnies.

brought over a couple of pups once and MIL actually ran to get the cat, claiming she saw them - she didnt. the cat was in the garage, and the pups were hidden on the other side of her porch.... she grabbed the cat in her arms and almost ran onto the porch, looking around as if she expected a pack of pit bulls to come after her. THEN she locked the screen doors and the sliding door lol

 

 

This is more projecting I think.  This is how I feel, ergo you/they MUST feel the same way.  It indicates a severe lack IMO... the person is unable/unwilling to think "outside the box" - where the box is their own feelings and perceptions.  Doesn't leave much room for empathy.

welllll lol thats her in a nut shell.. she does that to my kids too... i'm sure she must think they're abused because of all the animals around here.. and yes she doesnt give children much credit for having minds of their owns either.. so yes, projection is probably more the word i was thinking of. still not much difference when you think about it. projecting human emotions onto an animal.... 

I don't think so.  

"You are like me" is the beginning of empathy.  That's a GOOD thing.

But.... you ARE me, you are EXACTLY like me, with no thoughts, feelings etc of your own.... that's insulting and unhealthy.

Biiiig difference in my book.
 

brookcove

This is why I prefer not to tell a dog what to DO all the time, but rather simply signal when they are over the line.  I bet this was the difference you saw in your father's dogs versus your own. 

I have been thinking about these concepts since.  I do in general let Bugs figure things out and let him know when it it enough if it is 'over the line' as Becca said.  But DH, the dog training anti-christ, is quite controlling.  For example, we got the dog door put in.  I showed B that it opened by pushing it - being a nosy buddy he immediately stuck his head out while I had my hand holding it open.  So I let it drop and went out the door to other side.  B stuck his head through the flap a couple of times and then came through - a little weirded out but successful.  I did the very excited good boy thing and went in the door.  He checked to see if the flap opened it did he went through.

I told DH he was fine and he could now use it.  DH however went out to test and started barking commands, holding it open, trying to push B through (seriously) and was just terrible.  I told him to be quiet and go out the door.  He did a few moments later guess who was out with him.  I let B do his thing - whatever that may be - he is a very trustworthy dog in and out of the house.  DH watches over him, calls him to lie down, basically doesn't give him room.  For Bugsy I think this is detrimental.  He is a smart dog and a natural explorer, he enjoys figuring things out, have at it I say.

as for anthropomorphizing emotions - it is something I try not to do and can get irritated when others do it I do think 

brookcove

Dogs have a natural sense of contentment that comes from being in the moment more than people tend to be.  It's only when we start fussing over them that we make them anxious - when we fuss we "move the target."

As for the training I work very hard on training manners with B - he is a boisterous, confident dog and manners do not come naturally for him so he needs manners and I train him for mental stimulation but NOT so he doesn't have an opportunity to think

I did not read everyone Else's response because I wanted to be very honest about my own.....

I started a silly but honest thread the other day about buying a cyber dog to entertain the grandkids.... I am actually stressing over scheduling time to take care of a CYBER DOG !!!    So that being said My deck may be short a few cards, ( probably eaten by the grand kids!) ...

I routinely visit and speak with some of our mentors, folks who have been in the passion for ages and have many more dogs than ourselves. I am using some close friends as an example. They have over a dozen RRs , many geriatrics,  All show or retired show dogs.  All live in the dog room off of the kitchen ( a converted attached garage) . They come in to the house to whelp in the kitchen dining area. They are in the dog room or the very nice run system otherwise.  We co own a dog with them and my deepest fear is he will never understand the change of lifestyle when he is finished and goes to them to be shown. They assure me they will have him inside "like we do" but in the 20 + years we have known them they have never had a dog ( except a toy breed ) in the house.  That toy dog is a grumpy snarly nasty little thing that we all love but geez it sure isn't an adoring happy go lucky hound !  Their dogs do exceptionally well in the show ring.  When they travel they are in airline style crates with a few sheets of paper in for "padding" they never have calloused elbows or sores so the lack of expensive bedding has not been an issue.  They get treats only when training or showing. They do not have damages done to their home by dogs.  The dogs in my opinion , while beautiful and sweet are very limited in the ability to interact. Not one would lay it's life down for the family. And if they got loose they would not be running about trying to find a family member.  They eat a very limited diet, never have scraps and show trots are a frequent problem when traveling.

Another set of very dear and close friends known slightly longer have spent in the Hundreds of Thousands on their dogs from the $90,000.00 kennel complete with a 24/7 Kennel Mgr ( my Oldest Brother) They have two breeds of dogs , a tiny terrier breed and Irish Wolfhounds. They have about a dozen dogs .  3 geriatric terriers live in the main house.  2 Irish Wolfhounds. The rest live in the Kennel Facility at the end of the drive way. Lovely landscaped puppy yard, Puppy Kindergarten room , lots of lovely furniture that they are all allowed on.  They are kept in "rooms" that are about the size of huge box stalls, chain link walls with Italian tile floors, very open and generous. They have tons of heavy padded fleece beds , washed every two or three days.  Toys that are changed out in the toy chest regularly to maintain interest, ( I would guess they have close to 50-60 toys in reserve at all times)  .Before meeting us they were dearly loved but my friend said one day , about a year into our friend ship that I now had her saying things like " Then my dog ( insert name) stood there "thinking"  or "saying "...before our friendship she had never really thought about her dogs in that manner. They were beloved and deeply spoiled but not furkids. The dogs are devoted to the family and my brother.  They are watched over with great care and the owner's worry is if they got out they might get "lost".  They have frequent gastric issues and have to be carefully maintained on a strict diet to avoid bloat, runs, and misc. vomiting

So we can call them kennel A and B... That would make me C...

My dogs are kenneled in the house right off the kitchen in what the builder had meant to be a Florida room.  It is part of the living area . You can hear them if they are distressed or tearing up a toy. My dogs are crated every meal time ( to prevent the grand kids from feeding them all their Brussels Sprouts ) They are normally out and with us the rest of the time , excluding the grand's nap time or when we are gone.  They think nothing of being on the furniture.  Abandoning the over stuffed beds on the floor.  We have referred to our dogs as jealous about or mad about something but it is normally in context of who has the bigger bone or is getting the most hands on attention or training. ( not sweaters or days to the beach)  . I know for a fact my line is above and beyond devoted to our family. They have displayed it by taking the role of protector deeply to heart.  Several have done things , from alerting on health issues like seizures to staying with a young master who wandered off on to a heavily wooded estate.  (the dog had to scale an 8 foot fence to escape the outdoor kennel and floow the child for over 5 hours). My dogs always have bedding, but it may come from the cofortor section of the local Salvation Army, worn but clean. In hurricanes, travel, or night our dogs put themselves between ourselves and any unexpected noise or stranger. They stand their ground and alert first then warn off the subject or item.  My dogs have cast iron stomachs, rarely get soft stools and will eat almost anything.  Fruit, veggies, road kill ... My dogs get out once in a blue moon, they run wildly and joyfully for a 15 minute period unless caught more quickly. They ALWAYS return to the house or rv. The run is normally a big circle around where ever they know we are.

I KNOW my soul puppy did things to get even with me when I ticked her off.   How?  We would come back to the rv, hotel room or house and I would find ONLY my items trashed, only my side of the bed destroyed to the mattress while my husband's side would look as if a maid had just came in and cleaned.  She never once destroyed another family member's poseesion , but if I scolded her or told her to stay that I was spending training time or showing another dog  I would return to revenge taken !! She also got me off the road 6 times when I was driving before I had a seizure. 

Do I anthropomorphize??   Absolutely.  Does it harm my dogs?  No they receive a superior level of attention and care from us. Not a hired caretaker . They are never boarded away from us.  They do not live better than the family they live like the family. As part of the unit or pack.  The show dogs I mentioned in Kennel A  live about 2-4 years less than my average.  They can go for weeks without seeing the owners and respond pretty equally to any caretaker. They are never over weight and nails are always maintained. When one is lost the owner's grieve but it is "different"  it is a sad happening not a family loss.  Kennel B 's dogs live to the mid limits of the breed's life expectancy and seem to  have soooooo many medical issues it is confusing ?  State of the art care , the round the clock supervision carefully planned show careers and breeding programs but still all of the issues you would think they would somehow be exempt from. Our dogs are more invested in emotionally and our puppies when placed are always with homes that share the same attitudes.

Bonita of Bwana

 I believe in anthropomorphism big time!  I have a couple of reasons.  First, like Ron said, that is the only way humans can think.  We see everything and understand everything in human terms.  It's funny, when I was doing my dissertation research, I was working on an early twentieth-century American philosopher and he wrote a treatise on this very fact.  He also argued, that dogs see and understand everything based on their anatomy and brain structure. 

Back to the topic, the second reason I like anthro is that the proscription on anthropomorphism in animals has led to humans causing great suffering and harm to animals.  If we believe that animals have emotions and thoughts like humans, would we feel as morally comfortable in using them the way we do?

The third reason is that in the same way that we can never know that animals have the same thoughts and emotions that humans do, we can not know that they do not.  We have to choose what we believe.  It is a matter of faith isn't it?

The last reason is a more emotional one.  If I didn't believe that my dog had emotions and mental abilities somewhat similar to mine, it would change the way I feel about my dogs.  If I didn't believe that my dogs love me in a similar way to the way I love then, then what is our relationship all about?

My thoughts anyways! 

AuroraLove

Another interesting comment I've always heard about canines is that like humans they are one of the only other species that play and exhibit fun/playful behavior as adults. Granted I see mama lions and elephants engage in a small play with their offspring it usually has a lesson stemming from it or is to keep them occupied. Dogs on the other hand seek out fun all on their own wether it be with a toy, ball or playmate. What are your thoughts on this

I think dogs play and it makes them similar to humans. I don't think all anthro is bad. It gives some kind of context to judge behavior.

AuroraLove

If you've wathced a wolf pack its very clear who gets to eat first and who has to wait. The other pack members dont feel bad for making a lower memebr wait.....but most humans do when we witness such a act

The documentary of the guy that raised a litter of wolves was using the old studies as his guide for wolf behavior. Some other documentaries and ideas came from having stranger wolves with each other in a closed area. But people like L. David Mech, who studies wolves in their natural habitat, notes that the adults may kill the prey but will step aside to allow the cubs to eat, as well as eating themselves. And that most packs are actually family units, rather than stranger wolves who lost an arm-wrestling contest.

So, before I would base a dog pack behavior on a wolf pack behavior, I would check to see if the wolf pack model is applicable. Dogs have different lives in that they may meet many stranger dogs and form alliances very quickly, which is something wolves don't do, for example.

Good point about feeding time Ron. I also wanted to point out as a disclaimer that I obviously dont base all of my dogs behaviours upon those of wolf packs but its is a interesting study.

Anotehr thing mentioned about canines is that unlike a lot of other species (excluding elephants, monkey and some large cats) they mourn the loss of a member.

I'm definitely one to agree that our special bond with dogs is in part to the fact that they are so social, mourn, rejoice, and play like we do. I think it will forever be hard to be able to draw a firm line on the range of their emotions.

I also think it differs from breed to breed, what are some differences you've seen in breeds?

Again I'm not stating FACT here but my experience is mostly with Pit Bulls and various working hounds like Catahoulas and I've notcied most Pit Bulls are so much more emotional. I'm not saying they form a tighter bond witht their humans or have more feelings but I notice the Catties are more self sufficient where the bully breeds always seem to need reassurance and guidance. That could be chalked up to their workability but I mean the bully's tend to need more attention in genreal.....kinda strange to contemplate!

And some anthro may be appropos with dogs since, IMO, they are a species symbiotic with man. Of all the animals, dogs look to humans for cues. Dogs are quite adept at reading human gestures, even the movements of our eyes. We expect dogs to understand when we praise or correct. And sometimes, they do. Maybe we're being canipromorphized.

brookcove

This is why I prefer not to tell a dog what to DO all the time, but rather simply signal when they are over the line.

This is where I've eventually come to with Ben, partly because of his personality and partly in preparation for the next dog, who we both know is going to be a less-than-useless specimen for barking commands at all the time with the expectation of automatic obedience.  I touched on this in another thread recently, my dislike of micromanaging a dog who a) doesn't need it and b) isn't likely to respond favourably to it.  So much of either raising a puppy or rehabbing an older dog is teaching it to make appropriate decisions.  We do both ourselves and the animal a disservice if we don't allow them to graduate to a stage where they are allowed to put that into practice, with our trust and our voices at the ready if they slip up. 

Benedict

So much of either raising a puppy or rehabbing an older dog is teaching it to make appropriate decisions.  We do both ourselves and the animal a disservice if we don't allow them to graduate to a stage where they are allowed to put that into practice, with our trust and our voices at the ready if they slip up. 

here, here!! excellent post I am in 100% agreement

You all know I spoil my dogs but I do get a bit peeved when peopel tell me that there is no need to eat before I feed my dogs, to train them to allow me to walk through doors and gates before them, and things of that nature.

there is no need to engage in dominance voodoo rituals regardless of what breed(s) you have. Dogs don't think people are dogs and there is no way your dogs think you are the "alpha" of the pack regardless of what you do or don't do because you're clearly not a dog.