Anthropomorphism: beneficial to dogs or not. Why or why not?

I don't think you can make a dog other than what he is already.  You can enrich  a dog's perception and confidence by improving communication between you.  You can undermine a dog's potential by allowing him to manipulate you (limiting his world to his own instincts and fears), or overcontrolling him (second guessing his ability to shape his own actions appropriately).

Humility as such requires a stronger sense of self than I think dogs possess.  Moreover, it requires "other-thinking" that I'm fairly sure dogs don't have at all.  Humility is putting aside one's natural desires or rights to benefit another.

Dogs have a natural sense of contentment that comes from being in the moment more than people tend to be.  It's only when we start fussing over them that we make them anxious - when we fuss we "move the target."   This is why I prefer not to tell a dog what to DO all the time, but rather simply signal when they are over the line.  I bet this was the difference you saw in your father's dogs versus your own. 

Mine get table scraps and will wait expectantly at the table and as we are carrying the plates to the kitchen - but a word from me will disperse them.  They get called to the plates by name and woe be unto you if you stick your nose in there when it wasn't your name called!  This isn't a power play - different dogs get different scraps - Maggie and Lynn get no fat, Zhi gets no grain, Ben gets hardly anything but definitely nothing with egg or chicken.

brookcove

  This is why I prefer not to tell a dog what to DO all the time, but rather simply signal when they are over the line.  I bet this was the difference you saw in your father's dogs versus your own. 

LOL this was such a popular thread on the other forum but your one answer has enlightened me beyond ALL of theirs, LOL!

The part I quoted is the biggest mistake I (and a lot of dog owners) make. DH especially. I find myself telling him "if she wants to wander the house aimlessly let her, dont make her lay down cause your laying down", LOL

With my Dad especially I think I learned to relflect my feelings upon the dogs because I always felt so bad for the dogs that had to sleep outside. However now that have been on my own, in my own home for years now I notice I take his lead and advice more then I would have in his home. I find myself telling people things he used to tell me despite the fact I dont consider myself nowhere near as hard as he is.

You all know I spoil my dogs but I do get a bit peeved when peopel tell me that there is no need to eat before I feed my dogs, to train them to allow me to walk through doors and gates before them, and things of that nature. Granted its usually dog owners who have never owned a strong breed, they overlook the safety factor in it and competely ignore the fact that I attribute my dogs great manners to the accumualtion of such small obediance rituals. I do not lord over my dog with a iron fist......its quite the opposite. So on the complete opposite end of anthropomorphism I think that my first and foremost step is to try and think how a pack of wild dogs behave and I try to conform to that.

it depends. its not something i think on constantly, or fret over, or try to pound into other peoples heads because frankly its a waste of time...

my mother in law anthro's her 10 year old cat to death.... my FIL brought home a puppy a while back and supposedly the cat got upset and sulked so the puppy had to go away. i dont know HOW.... i didnt ask.

any time my husband and i bring over an animal (bunny, puppy etc) MIL freaks out FOR the cat..... we brought over a couple of baby bunnies once.. wanted to show them to her since she LIKES bunnies... ten minutes into the visit the cat walks in.. sees bunnies and just turns around and walks out of the house.... big deal.... yeah it was! MIL spent an HOUR searching for this cat. the more time that passed the more the panicked.. where was the cat? on the neighbours porch. exactly where i had seen her on previous visits, sans bunnies.

brought over a couple of pups once and MIL actually ran to get the cat, claiming she saw them - she didnt. the cat was in the garage, and the pups were hidden on the other side of her porch.... she grabbed the cat in her arms and almost ran onto the porch, looking around as if she expected a pack of pit bulls to come after her. THEN she locked the screen doors and the sliding door lol

AuroraLove

So on the complete opposite end of anthropomorphism I think that my first and foremost step is to try and think how a pack of wild dogs behave and I try to conform to that.

What????  You conform, you consider yourself part of a pack of dogs?  Tell me, have you ever observed a pack of dogs meeting a new dog for the first time.  Did you note their behavior.  Have you observed the greetings of a close knit pack of dogs when the members have been separated?  If you have, compare that to the greetings of you and your dogs, the behavior is not the same.  I don't greet my dogs the way dogs greet each other and the dogs don't greet me the same way as they do with other dogs. 

I don't care if anyone says I anthroposmophize my dogs.  I show my dogs considerations just as I would like that same consideration.  I am so surprised to continually read on forums that people believe you have to eat first before the dogs or you have to go through the door first. 

I let my dogs eats first, their same old same old yummy dog food.  I do this so that their hunger is satsified and they know what it is to be "full".  Then by me eating the human food, the WANT for my food is diminished.  So, instead of two needs coming into play, satisfy hunger and taste pleasure, I get good calm behavior during meal time.

Going first through the door.  What is actually accomplished by that.  The human has to open the door and the dogs are behind you.  If the dogs were at the door, how does the human open the door.  The human also has to hold the door open for the dogs to go through, just like the service provider doorman at major hotels.  The dogs have to pass you and be in front of you at some time when going through the door.  Just doesn't make any sense at all.

I think some anthro is unavoidable. We are humans describing dog things in a human way, with human language and concepts. Look at how we talk about a dog that is working. The dog may not think its "work" at all. But we do. Giving the dog a "job."

You mentioned feeling bad for the dogs that had to sleep outside. Is that because you would think it's bad to sleep outside? Why can't all creatures sleep inside, like humans? I don't think your dog is worse a behavior problem than any of your dad's dogs. You simply didn't see all the behaviors they could do because they were outside. Plus, what might not be acceptable inside the house is a non-issue outside the house.

In the sweater example, the person who buys a sweater for their dog because they saw it on another dog might be projecting the want of the sweater onto their dog, but is their dog any worse for it? The problem is not that they bought a sweater for the dog but that you thought they were projecting human style desires onto the dog and that was a problem for you.

What about cookie cutter solutions? What if someone thinks that every dog they have needs to be in agility? I'm not dissing agility but some dogs may not be into it as much as other dogs.

Is it anthro to assume that affection is as important to dogs as it is to humans? I have a co-worker who cares not who he ticks off by what he says. He is way worse about speaking his mind than I ever thought I was. This would lead me to assume he doesn't need human companionship as much as others who might be more socially adept. So is anthro to assume that dogs need affection above all else? Is it anthro to assume that all dogs seek social status and dominance because humans can conceive of it that way?

It seems like I have asked more questions than I have answered but it's all your fault for asking a really good question in the first place.

Kudos to you.

"Anthropomorphizing" is one of those catch-all words -- the chick who bought the sweater?  SHE has a shopping complex, not the dog.  That's at one end of the spectrum. 

Learning to think more like a dog would think to then understand what's going on in their heads -- when you TALK about that to some folks, they assume you are anthropomorphizing because you can't possibly "speak dog". 

bottom line -- it's a word abused -- and there is such a huge range in between them, that it's tough to 'discuss' and be on the same page.

But bottom line (and here's me 'brief' just once) -- if expressing what I think is going on in the dog's mind in human words is anthropomorphizing then it's beneficial because I'm trying to understand the dog so I can make the best choices ...

 The dog with the new sweater?  ... er ... well, I guess it's beneficial because he's warm??? *rolling eyes*

lol i'm with Callie. i think like a dog.... so i can then voice how he might be feeling.... we can never know for sure, but i like to think i'm fairly accurate because i know dog body language.

sweaters arent a bad thing.... some breeds need a little extra help with cold weather.. but shoes, hats, tank tops and skirts are a bit over the top lol 

 and in regards to dogs sleeping out doors... Ben HATES being in the house..... he visits but he wants right back out. during the night he paces and whimpers to be let out... i feel bad for dogs being forced to sleep inside when they want out. he has access to warm dry soft places and the house... but he seems to prefer outside. heck, i do too sometimes lol
 

DPU

What????  You conform, you consider yourself part of a pack of dogs?  Tell me, have you ever observed a pack of dogs meeting a new dog for the first time.  If you have, compare that to the greetings of you and your dogs, the behavior is not the same.  I don't greet my dogs the way dogs greet each other and the dogs don't greet me the same way as they do with other dogs. 

Well your reading a bit more into what I said then I intended but I should have ellaborated a bit. Your example of greeting dosnt pertain to what I was implying at all. Its a scenario you made up in your head to make your point, LOL.

For example when I teach my pups to come for the first time I've learned that turning my body away from them conveys to them what I want from them. For example in a dog pack the alpha dosnt go round everyone up and say "come on guys, its time to go", LOL he just turns and walks away. This simple exercise has NOTHING to do with displaying a alpha role or dominance, its about utilizing their natural receptors to follow those of the pack.

I yawn at Rory in public if she gets excited. If she tries to approach me when I'm eating I'll scowl at her.....no need to yell, I'm speaking to her through body language.

I don't care if anyone says I anthroposmophize my dogs.  I show my dogs considerations just as I would like that same consideration.  I am so surprised to continually read on forums that people believe you have to eat first before the dogs or you have to go through the door first. 

Going first through the door.  What is actually accomplished by that.  The human has to open the door and the dogs are behind you.  If the dogs were at the door, how does the human open the door.  The human also has to hold the door open for the dogs to go through, just like the service provider doorman at major hotels.  The dogs have to pass you and be in front of you at some time when going through the door.  Just doesn't make any sense at all.

This topic was brought up with the thought in mind that sometimes anthroposomizing can go overboard......we all do it to a certain extent and there is no reason to be defensive about it.

I'm a bit confused as to why you completely took my comment about eating and doorways out of context, LOL. I'm not sure why you see it as me trying to be dominant or see it as uneccessary. I clearly stated

" they overlook the safety factor in it and competely ignore the fact that I attribute my dogs great manners to the accumualtion of such small obediance rituals".

Asking my dogs to wait before proceeding through a door is strictly a safety routine. Just becasue its stated in some strict dog practices dosnt mean I ask that of my dogs to use is as a reason to lord over my dogs, LOL. You can interpret it as a negative act but it works for my dogs. It ensures they are calm and composed before we go for a walk. It ensures that my dogs will never bolt into the street or out of a car door. I don't see whats wrong with that?

As for me eating first, I attribute that to helping ensure my dogs do not beg. When I first brought Rory adn Primo home they did beg. So I put them outside where they could watch the family eat dinner though the sliding glass door and after we were done they were fed. It has done wonders to keep them from hanging around under the kitchen table or coming near us while we eat. They know the repurcussion is being put outside. Its manners, not dominance.

We've both been on here long enough for you to kow I spoil my dogs. I just require them to have a specific amount of maners.....as I;m sure you do as well. Just because I go about it in maybe a different way dosnt give you cause to be so rude. I certainly am not using negative reinforcement.

ron2

So is anthro to assume that dogs need affection above all else? Is it anthro to assume that all dogs seek social status and dominance because humans can conceive of it that way?

I do assume (assume not KNOW, LOL) that they do from watching wolf documentaries. From what I've witnessed they are social animals and thrive on knowing their place in the pack. I've heard over and over throughought my childhood "its ok for a dog to be lower in rank in the pack AS LONG AS HE KNOWS HIS PLACE" Supposedly when a dog is not shown where it belongs in a pack is when the trouble starts and he seeks out his place by testing others in his pack.

If you've wathced a wolf pack its very clear who gets to eat first and who has to wait. The other pack members dont feel bad for making a lower memebr wait.....but most humans do when we witness such a act.

Dont quote me on any of this, its all speculation for debate and thought provoking discussion.

Another interesting comment I've always heard about canines is that like humans they are one of the only other species that play and exhibit fun/playful behavior as adults. Granted I see mama lions and elephants engage in a small play with their offspring it usually has a lesson stemming from it or is to keep them occupied. Dogs on the other hand seek out fun all on their own wether it be with a toy, ball or playmate. What are your thoughts on this?

AuroraLove

Going first through the door.  What is actually accomplished by that.  The human has to open the door and the dogs are behind you.  If the dogs were at the door, how does the human open the door.  The human also has to hold the door open for the dogs to go through, just like the service provider doorman at major hotels.  The dogs have to pass you and be in front of you at some time when going through the door.  Just doesn't make any sense at all.

i dont mind letting my dogs go through the door first IF they arent trying to shove people out of the way. they have to sit first and wait - i am usually checking to see if the coast is clear!! - then we go out..  

as for going in the house.... i dont mind if they go in first then AS LONG AS they arent shoving. again with the sit/stay... i dont feel like that compromises my leadership in their eyes.

as for eating.... mine have learned not to beg at the table and they are BANNED from the kitchen any time there are people in there. they will lie at the kitchen door and watch us but they know there are no snacks coming their way.. and they know better than to come into the kitchen. same as with the above... the consequence is outside. all the animals (ALL of them from the chickens on up to the pig) get fed at the same time every day. they do not eat every time we eat.... the dogs expect to be fed the same time every day, and its never at 7:30pm..

but they're dogs lol they are forever hopeful of the forgetful husband or rule breaking kid..... thats why they hang out close by... within range of a flying piece of steak!  

The dogs that never get table scraps, never get to sleep inside, and get less attention dont crave it like our dogs do. Even the dogs retired to the house never beg as much as our dogs raised inside do, SO I've come to realize dogs have a sense of humbleness to them.

how do you know they don't crave it? dogs only beg for food or ask for attention if such behaviors are rewarded occasionally. If you NEVER reward such behaviors they stop doing them. Nothing to do with "humbleness".

I think anthropomorphism is sometimes beneficial to dogs in the context that we generally treat humans with more care and compassion that animals.  I think it becomes harmful to dogs if it is carried to such an extreme that the dog isn't allowed to be a dog.

Like so much in life; extremes are usually not good.

mudpuppy

how do you know they don't crave it? dogs only beg for food or ask for attention if such behaviors are rewarded occasionally. If you NEVER reward such behaviors they stop doing them. Nothing to do with "humbleness".

 I was basing my statement on observations of when the hunt dogs retire to the house and are more content and less demanding then dogs raised indoors. I agree that since they've never been rewarded for the behavior they are less likely to do it but its really something you have to witness. I should have been more clear but I wasn'y insinuating the dogs outside in the kennel dont crave table scraps, just that I interpret them as more humble when they do get to come inside. Some would think they would have less manners from not spending much time indoors but they've lived of life of work and servtitude so thats why "humble' came to mind. I've noticed the same with dogs whom have lived a shelter life versus house dogs.

Your right, it probably has nothing to do with humbleness but that was the point of this thread.....to discuss HOW and WHY we anthropomorphise.

I agree with callie that anthropomorphism is kind of a catch-all. There are various levels of treating the dog like a human or attributing human emotions to the dog. I don't see anything wrong with it as long as it's not harming the dog. And I think that might be a little different for different situations.

I do it to a certain extent, but I keep in mind that they are dogs and not little humans with fur. They lick off my plate, I hold them and baby them. I am very respectful to them and they pretty much set their schedule as far as what they do with their time.

My answer to your question is that I don't think raising an emotional dog is necessarily a bad thing or a disservice to them. I have a couple VERY emotional dogs and 2 that aren't so much. If there are no behavior problems and everyone is happy, I don't see any problem with even dressing up the dog and treating it like a baby. The problem is that SOMETIMES that leads to behavioral issues.

So, it's not the anthropomorphism itself I would be concerned with. It's the behavior. If there's a behavior problem, then a person might want to look a little closer at the messages the dog is getting.