Bird Dog Frustration

I got Grace from the Illinois Birddog Rescue and am a volunteer there. They are a GREAT group. I talk to Lisa all the time.  She comes up to Grand Mere Beach with her crew and we have, successfully with the help of an e collar, let Grace (and Trudy) run with Lisa's pack up there.  Seems like if there's a bunch of dogs she is more likely to stay with the pack.  She actually left the pack and came back, at one point, to check in on her old mom struggling up the Dunes lol.  Grand Mere isn't a wide open field, either.   

You are talking about the Des Plaines Wild Life Area in Wilmington, IL.   Every year they have the BirdDog Balooza on October over in the Des Plaines Wild Life Area.   I also belong to the German Shorthair Pointer Club of Illinois and go to thier birddog clinic there with my setter.  I'm hunt testing her in a couple of weeks. 

Try this.  Put her on a 30' line in a more distracting environment.  Have something really scrumptious, like liverwurst or tripe (ugh) in your bait bag.  Let her get a bit distracted. Call her.  If she comes, fine - give her a reward.  But, if she doesn't come, gently reel her in and let her SMELL the tripe but she doesn't get even an eency weency bit of it - too bad;-)

Now, let her get distracted again.  Call.  When she gets to you, be sure to feed her little bitty pieces of that tripe for a good twenty seconds so that she can't believe her good fortune.  You may have to repeat the exercise, but absence of a reward (especially a smelly one like tripe) makes an impression on most dogs.  They start deciding to check in with you when you call, on the off chance that tripe is waiting.

diane303

Seems like if there's a bunch of dogs she is more likely to stay with the pack. 

Its been years but I think I do remember a Lisa.  I also received a lot, I mean of lot of advise from PRO.  They told me they included Lady's pointing pictures in their magazine.

Yep, thats the belongingness need.  Very strong and tight with the breed instinct to hunt and point, at least that is what I experienced.  Lady came to me in very bad shape and we built a really tight trust/bond during that rehab period.  I think that had a lot to do with the control I had over her.  Lady was an older dog and I think you are contending with youth.

We finally got to the point where I let her off lead in a 40 acre field.  The field is fairly safe from traffic.  The closest road is a dirt road with a few building between the field and the road.  The field is backed up with woods. 

 She did great at first.  I had my setter out there, too. Trudy was impeccable, ranging out about 100 yards and check back for a scratch and a "good girl".  Grace responded to the whistle and the vibration and seemed to be checking back with my setter.  Then Grace looked out toward those woods and made a dash for it.  I whistled, then vibrated and when it was obvious that she was not responding, I cranked up the e-collar and caught her before she hit the woods.  She abruptly turned and zipped back with her tail between her legs and didn't want to leave my leg.  I praised her and jackpotted her big time.  

My husband and I took her out and worked with the whistle a couple more times and there was one time when a friend stopped by and my husband turned his attention to the guy when Grace made a dash for it again.  I whistled and zapped her again and she zipped back and was all.....repentant. 

She's like living with a junky. It is so obvious that Grace knows the "come" command, the vibration and the whistle but looks for the moment that she can make a run for it.   I just have to make sure she never ever gets away with running off because when she successfully makes a dash for it, it must be very rewarding to her. 

I think that I'm getting better at reading her and have to be prepared when I see that "look".   I've been told that this is something that has to be reinforced for her entire lifetime. 

Trudy is so great out in the field and it's so great to have a dog that checks with you because you are a partner and a companion.  It is sad that Grace is a lovely affectionate dog but, in the field, considers us a hindrance and must be controlled with fear of pain.

 Hey its progress!!  She will never be like Trudy but I bet she will continue to get better.

diane303

I think that I'm getting better at reading her and have to be prepared when I see that "look".

diane303

She's like living with a junky. It is so obvious that Grace knows the "come" command, the vibration and the whistle but looks for the moment that she can make a run for it.   I just have to make sure she never ever gets away with running off because when she successfully makes a dash for it, it must be very rewarding to her. 

OK I must admit this made me laugh - I can completely commiserate. I tell people that Bugsy is like a crack addict (and I have worked in addictions) when he is in the woods or on trails.

Anyway I am really happy that you were able to make some progress and I bet with a few more times in that field - likely with the strong corrections - she will become more easily thwarted and you won't need the intense corrections.  Right now she has too many free runs in her memory store - once she makes the connection as she has done on your home fence she'll be fine!!

Continued good luck and progress from a fellow bird dog junkie owner 

kpwlee

OK I must admit this made me laugh - I can completely commiserate. I tell people that Bugsy is like a crack addict (and I have worked in addictions) when he is in the woods or on trails.

I did feel an aha moment when "the look" registered in MY brain and I could be prepared to react.  It did encourage me to take her out more and work with her. 

You are truly a kindred spirit here.  Not many people understand. I'm continuously told to take her out on a long line or work with her in the yard.  She's perfect on a line or in the yard!   It's the split second when she gets a whiff of ....something....and  realizes that she has a chance to go for it big.   

 Thanks for you encouragement. We have our own bird dog Alanon chapter here.    

diane303

It's the split second when she gets a whiff of ....something....and  realizes that she has a chance to go for it big.   

diane303

Thanks for you encouragement. We have our own bird dog Alanon chapter here.  

Here's tonight's experience - I took him to the lake as he has finally begun to swim and I want to encourage it.  There are always lots of geese etc. So he begins stalking 40-50 yds from the lake shore which I allow.  I then tell him to wait - then release him.  He goes after them and instead of stopping when he hits the deep water he keeps going and going and going. I start getting nervous because he isn't Michael Phelps but he was gone.  He eventually turned around and started back only to realize there were some ducks on his right off to there.  He was swimming for best part of 45 minutes, trying to decide which he might catch and attempting to do so.  I at the end was getting worried as his technique was getting worse and worse and he was exhausted.  I had to go in the lake and get him and it was another of those Oh did you want me? moments, sigh

with her tail between her legs

Of course she didn't want to leave you - she was probably hoping you would save her from the nasty thing that shocked her:-((

This is so sad. You caused pain and frightened your dog and think it's fine?   The time to teach and *proof* a proper recall is BEFORE the dog gets into the field and has no idea that all those wonderful sights and sounds are not to be tampered with during "work time".   JMHO, but glad I have dogs that come with tails or butts wagging....

spiritdogs

You caused pain and frightened your dog and think it's fine?

She has been working with Gracie since she got her as a rescue and has darn near tried everything but the ecollar until recently - check the OP and that is how recent because once again Gracie took off.   I'm pretty sure she has had lots of formal training, worked with a behaviorist etc but Gracie's instincts overrule all training.  Her greatest reward is running free after game and is lost to her nose.  She is an exceptional dog meaning not the norm. Diane has so hard with her and has tried to avoid using the ecollar in the field but understands that Gracie's safety is of the utmost importance.

I'm sure that she will not need to use it forever but for now she does. 

spiritdogs

This is so sad.

I worked with pointers and there are dogs that absolutely, no matter how much yard work, proofing on long lines, whatever you want to offer as a treat for a good recall, will not work with some dogs.  And yes it is necessary to keep a dog from becoming lost, to use whatever it takes to teach the dog a recall.  Unless you have worked with this type of dog in the field with birds you just can't understand the desire to run that overcomes these dogs.  This is what they were bred to do and as a trainer your job is to teach them to remain in range.  They do learn and the need for the e-collar is usually for a short period of time.  It seems obvious to me that the OP has no desire to hurt her dog and has tried all other methods and she is doing what any experienced pointer trainer would do to keep their dog safe until the recall is reliable.

spiritdogs

 

with her tail between her legs

Of course she didn't want to leave you - she was probably hoping you would save her from the nasty thing that shocked her:-((

This is so sad. You caused pain and frightened your dog and think it's fine?   The time to teach and *proof* a proper recall is BEFORE the dog gets into the field and has no idea that all those wonderful sights and sounds are not to be tampered with during "work time".   JMHO, but glad I have dogs that come with tails or butts wagging....

Anne - 1. You don't have anfield variety English Pointer.  2. Did you not actually read my post?  You can't proof her in the yard or with a check cord.  She is perfect, there.  Even more snappily responsive than my silly setter girl (who is wonderful in the field).  She only has this behavior in the wide open when she is untethered.  You can wave green tripe till your arm falls off and she won't even look at it. She just gazes out in the direction her nose is pointing and shivers with anticipation (they actually call this the "pointer shake"by the way) This is why there are so many pointers in rescue (lost & injured) or dead along the side of the road.  Most hunters that use English pointers (not GSPs) and know the breed use e-collars and tracking systems so that they can track the dog down when they range too far (3 miles max!).

Thanks, pointer people,  for coming to my defense.  This is what I was talking about when I said that you have to own a dog like this to really understand.

JackieG, you sound like you've worked with those big running Texas dogs that George Hickox is famous for.  Grace is most probably an Elhew dog.  Not quite as Audacious as the Silver Bullet but still driven.  They are hunting machines.  If George comes our way again with a seminar, I will scrape up enough cash to take it.  

And you must know, too, that in the home, they are the sweetest, mildest, most non-aggressive dogs in the the world. 

It's like they just can't help themselves!  The more I think about it, I really love the analogy of the memory bank.  Maybe this will be chaulked up in the negative experience compartment for B. 

You want these dogs to be able to do this stuff to a safe controllable degree because it's part of their natural behavior.  You just don't want them to get hurt, lost or dead - and that is the frustration. 

This type of determination and stamina that is desired by the hunter on horseback out in the Dakotas where the fields go on and on. 

Oh my, I get the "shivers" when I see a pointer like those big running dogs.  Nothing prettier in my opinion.  Elhew, oh my, oh my!!  Makes me want a pointer, wait, snap out of it, Jackie. 

They are beautiful dogs.  I'm a bit partial to the field variety bird dogs, any way, in both setters and pointers.  Grace is an extremely well put together creature and people are always commenting about her presence when we got to trials. 

She has been a challenge.  

I really wish I could hunt test her one day because she is about 3 times more intensely birdy than my setter.  I have truely been bitten by the upland birddog bug (besides the occasional tick ).  Saturday, I'm going to be in the field at 6:30 a.m. planting quail for a AKC hunt test.  I want to watch a real hunt test (and maybe take a few photos) before Trudy and I venture out.

We'll continue to work on it and, who knows, we might give it a try next year.  

You don’t want to keep burning the dog on high. Collar wise is something you want when a dog is properly trained. Collar fear is what you want to avoid.

Collar fear is when you burn a dog on high and they look around like they just got stung by a bee or they tuck their tail and run. Of course they will never want to wear the collar! Collar wise is when they associate the collar with going outside and having fun.

The dog needs to understand what the stimulation means and where it is coming from in order to be effective, just like a clicker. What you are doing is making a dog come out of fear. Something is hurting him so he is coming to hide behind you. If they dont come you turn it up. You can ruin a dog like that overtime they will not cast out at all. Proper conditioning is trained with the dog on a leash first. In my videos you can see many dogs doing off leash e-collar recalls with enthusiasm. They will actualy push and shove each other when I turn a collar on. They all want to go have fun!