Bird Dog Frustration

 well we just got back from a few days in the mountains and Bugsy out and about in nature is a dog on crack - I understand that dogs are led by their nose but he is a slave to it.  Anyway we had some improvements in some areas, I could even drop the drag line and let him loose with a few successful attempts at commands.  So that was good.

But best is we discovered he responds to a whistle - I bought a small emergency whistle from REI and when he went from wandering around the cabin to full explosion at the sight of a deer - he went deaf.  I told DH to grab the whistle and blow and by golly although I could no longer see him I saw the brush stop moving.  One more bleep and he started back.  He got a nice piece of steak for that.  It worked again when he went after a rabbit.

I had not trained him to the whistle so I really cannot express how amazed I was that he responded so well.

Don't you just love it when you find the "thing" that works.  Keep that whistle!

Sounds like a good trip!  Can't wait to see pics!

I just saw this thread. How is Gracie doing?

If I had a dog that I hadn't raised from a puppy, or even that I had... and couldn't call it off of prey, I wouldn't hesitate to use an e collar. That is a matter of life or death. The two that I have now, I've had forever. Teenie, the Dachshund, didn't come when I called her. She was old as the hills, though, and had been abused. I just kept her on a leash. 

CoBuHe

Can't wait to see pics!

Here is Grace doing what she was born to do.  

I've been doing research and talking to trainers.  There is a -R technique that is very structured, using extended low stimulation with an e-collar that I'm going to start with Grace.  It takes time and consistency, but is said to successfully condition the dog without being too Harsh.  When the dog understands, you transition to lowering the stim to a vibration or tone and making a game out of it. 

I am also working on her "whoa".  She knows it from her past life - but again - without it being reinforced - it's useless.

 

 GREAT photo!  Good girl Grace

Good luck Diane and keep us posted!

Thanks!  The trainer also gave me a whistle to use.  Nothing subtle about this one! lol.  He said that a good loud whistle gets heard over distance when a  frantic voice doesn't.

 ...and he also reminded me that his 6 pieces of advice were patience, patience, patience,  consistency,  consistency and....consistency.
 

 I just saw this thread, but I completely hear you. Lexi was born to sniff, that is all she wants to do in life, and the minute she is outside she starts scenting. If she catches any scent er brain goes into "find it" mode, and she doesn't hear anything. It's extremely frustrating, and her recall is only rock solid in our yard and in a training center. Sometimes I have to clap or make a really loud noise to break through her concentration (that whistle sounds great), but sadly I will never let her off leash in an unenclosed area because I don't trust her to be able to conquer her instincts. We reward every recall with her and probably will until the day she goes to the bridge.

Good luck! 

 I'm in agreement with the e-collar. You never know when your pup might cross a busy road or some other dangerous  situation. At least an e-collar will keep the dog alive. Someone mentioned an issue of hearing. Another tip could be a whistle.  I have a Gordon who looses all sense when on a bird. She's not completely up to speed with the whistle yet, but she definitely is more attentive. It's like tunnel vision. Dogs can loose their wits when on a scent. Whistles can be heard much further away than the human voice, and even out of sight, so it's better than hand signals in many ways. The herding folks use them, as do many field trainers......Just a thought.

Have you tried setting up a controlled environment in your enclosed yard.  I know that may be impossible to do but I had the best of luck with my foster Pointer (see my avatar) in shaping a stiff perfect point and also the recall.  I had the help of Morning Doves and if you know Morning Doves they know exactly their safety distance and sometimes it is only a couple of feet.  What I also noticed was when I took Lady to my sister's house, Lady would point and stalk her pet birds in a cage.  First thing in the morning, Segals would accumulate on the golf course across from my house and they were at quite a distance.  Every morning, Lady would climb on my bed, look out the window and point.  Another opportunity I used to get her to refocus on command.

diane303

Thanks!  The trainer also gave me a whistle to use.  Nothing subtle about this one! lol.  He said that a good loud whistle gets heard over distance when a  frantic voice doesn't.

 ...and he also reminded me that his 6 pieces of advice were patience, patience, patience,  consistency,  consistency and....consistency.
 

That's true, and it's the basis for training an emergency recall on many dogs, not just hunters.  But, the whistle alone is not what gets the dog to come.  It's when it's used as the predictor of being reinforced!  So, I tell me clients to pair the sound of the whistle with getting a piece of roast beef, or with getting the frisbee, or with getting to go chase the squirrel again...then, when you need it, the dog heeds - because it has always predicted something good about to happen.  That is how you stay more interesting to the dog than the environment - you do 100's of repetitions of "whistle predicts good stuff" until the dog is convinced.  Then, your dog will forgive you the one time you must call him off the deer and have only a biscuit to offer.

http://www.clickertraining.tv/product.html?item=KPDLBK147R 
http://www.positivegundogs.com/

Maybe these guys will have some hints for you, too:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/PositiveGunDogs/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=1 

Bravo! You cannot beat the environment so you became the best thing in it. And providing ultimate reward is going to lock it in solidly.

I've known of some who have successfully used e-collars for birddogs but even if you went to the collar, you could get one that vibrates, rather than shocks. And the vibrating collar would be doing the same thing as the whistle. A non-invasive marker that something excellent is going to happen.

I say, stick with the whistle. He can hear it and responds to it and you have ensured that it means good things. And don't be afraid to use more steak, or pork chops, or chicken. If you vary the reward, even among high value treats, that will help keep his attention, like a slot machine.

 Hey, thanks!  I will check out the positivegundogs site for sure.  I bought an new e collar (Dogtra) that has a vibration feature.  So we go out in the yard with a bag of goodies and lots of praise and do whistle (vibration) = treat.  I make a big riotous game of it and it seems to be working so far.  I will take her out to the dog park (4 acres) and see if it translates there as well.  Then we will go out into rural MI to a 40 acre field that is far away from heavy duty traffic, work on a long line and then, keeping fingers crossed, go for it.

Wish us luck.

DPU

Have you tried setting up a controlled environment in your enclosed yard.  I know that may be impossible to do but I had the best of luck with my foster Pointer (see my avatar) in shaping a stiff perfect point and also the recall.  I had the help of Morning Doves and if you know Morning Doves they know exactly their safety distance and sometimes it is only a couple of feet.  What I also noticed was when I took Lady to my sister's house, Lady would point and stalk her pet birds in a cage.  First thing in the morning, Segals would accumulate on the golf course across from my house and they were at quite a distance.  Every morning, Lady would climb on my bed, look out the window and point.  Another opportunity I used to get her to refocus on command.

We also have morning doves.  She will stand there for an hour pointing at the morning dove nest.  The problem with working in the yard is that she knows she has boundaries and she has a perfect recall in the yard.   It's when she is out and out running and has no discernable boundary that she looses track of everything else except what she is chasing.  After all, they are bred to be followed on horseback and it is not uncommon for English pointers to forget the handler until after the chaise.  Grace was taught to return to a pickup truck after she was done. I guess if the dog didn't find it's way to the pickup truck, you either tracked it with a beeper or tracking collar or "Oh, Well".  There are a lot of "Oh, Well" dogs in rescue. 

Since you have controll over the birddog in a controlled environment, the next step is to give your dog a little more freedom but in an enclosed safe area.  When I fostered my field pointer, I contacted the Illinois Birddog Society http://www.illinoisbirddogrescue.org/ and they recommended coming to one of their outings in a large acreage enclosed dog park.  The idea was that the dog would learn how to work with other pointers and also learn from the other dogs.  Lady turned out to be an old pro at this and she did wonderfully in that setting.  Contact a Bird Dog rescue in your area and talk this over with them.   Illinois is not that far from Michigan.