Bird Dog Frustration

Don't take it personally, for bird dogs its almost like having head phones on when she catches a smell. I believe this to be true especially since the dog already knows what is expected of them but dosnt respond.

It sounds as if she needs help hearing you instead of responding.....and I'm not insinuating she is hard of hearing, LOL. It sounds liek she needs help keeping a ear out for you if that makes sense. You'll likely know if this is true or not by her response when you call her. For example if her ears go back and she digs in and is outright disobeying you it is a bit different then just plain being lost in the moment and not hearing you as if she is in doggy la-la land.

If you decide she has a hard time keeping a ear out for you................ 

I say get a 30-50 ft lead, take her to a open feild, let her roam, do her business and when you decide to say her name give a gentle tug from your direction to teach her that means she needs to keep a ear out for you. Don't even call her to you, just get her to respond when you say her name and then let her go about her business again. Hopefully in time she'll check in with you on her own.

Then once this overcome you can try to get her to come since she already knows that command. The great thing about the lead is that if she dosnt then you can reel her in, praise, and release to start over.

Calling her at different intervals, amkingher stay for different durations are always good. Then when its time to go you can go to her and make her heel on the way back to the car or home.

Have you tried buying a lunge line for a horse and hooking that to her collar? I had a hard time with my Golden's (working water fowl retriever) recall outdoors and I got him a lunge line. I would take him out and let him run....get some energy out while I have that back-up.....I had a 30 footer but they come in many different lengths. When you want her to come call her. If she ignores you (only say it once) reel her in like a fish. When she gets there give her a delicious treat and LOTS of praise. Then let her explore again and do it again. A whistle may help too, but I didn't use one because I didn't want one in the field. Personally I hate E-collars and I think Forced Retrieve training is horrid. My boy is every bit as reliable as the ones trained that way, and I have NEVER hurt him. Not once. I hope this is helpful and maybe an avenue you hadn't explored yet?

I'm curious about the lunge line vs. e-collar.  If the dog is on a line and totally ignores the recall, you pull the dog in right?  So that's a physical correction, same concept as the e-collar.  I've seen people using the lunge line method jerk the dog a lot harder than a light stim from an e-collar.  

I think the fairness of a correction is more of an issue, regardless of what tool is used.

I have a 30"check cord and she is marginally OK on the check cord (not great - she can tear out full speed after something and will pull your arm out of the socket if you try to grab it.  She knows that she is on a lead and will begrudgingly do your bidding while looking out over the horizon with that glazed look in her eye .  She has absolutely no interest in treats or affection when she is in the field.  Her eyes glaze over and the only thing that exists is the world in her nose. 

I wish I could express upon you how really impossible this seems to be.

I don't think that it is actual disobedience.  She honestly gets hypnotized out there in bird lala land and you just don't matter...period.  If she is not on a cord or e-collar and she can avoid dealing with you, she's gone to birddy  Nirvana.  G'BY!

My English setter wasn't the easiest dog to train off leash.  But guess what?  I am, at least, as important as the friggin birds out there.  We are PARTNERS in the field.  We recently did a upland bird hunting clinic and she was my buddy out there.  She was awesome.  Grace is an even more intense pointing dog, but I can't hunt test her because she can't be trusted out there.

Liesje

I think the fairness of a correction is more of an issue, regardless of what tool is used.

This is what the bird dog people say.  They say that the dog should understand all of the commands before you start and use the e-collar as a reinforcer. But their biggest mantra is consistency, consistency, consistency, patience, patience, patience.  I'm thinking that when she is all "out there", it can be used as a "tap on the shoulder" first and then after that the ignoring of the command could be considered disobedience.  Cut and dried.  No room to waver.

She does well on the e-collar.   I don't use it everyday...day in and day out. They even recommend putting the collar on a couple of hours before you go out to train and not take it off for a while afterwards - so that the dog doesn't become "collar-wise"  I think that If you use it everyday, the dog not only gets trained, it gets conditioned and obedience becomes an automatic behavior.  (I'm selling myself on this e-collar business, I think).  She also is trained to an e-fence, so it isn't such a traumatic change. 

diane303

 

Liesje

I think the fairness of a correction is more of an issue, regardless of what tool is used.

This is what the bird dog people say.  They say that the dog should understand all of the commands before you start and use the e-collar as a reinforcer. But their biggest mantra is consistency, consistency, consistency, patience, patience, patience.  I'm thinking that when she is all "out there", it can be used as a "tap on the shoulder" first and then after that the ignoring of the command could be considered disobedience.  Cut and dried.  No room to waver.

She does well on the e-collar.   I don't use it everyday...day in and day out. They even recommend putting the collar on a couple of hours before you go out to train and not take it off for a while afterwards - so that the dog doesn't become "collar-wise"  I think that If you use it everyday, the dog not only gets trained, it gets conditioned and obedience becomes an automatic behavior.  (I'm selling myself on this e-collar business, I think).  She also is trained to an e-fence, so it isn't such a traumatic change. 

Makes sense to me.  I don't personally use an e-collar, but that's mainly because I can't afford a good one.

We've also had major issues with Coke's recall.  Like you say, he gets locked in on something and to him, that's the most awesome thing in the world at the moment.  No amount of dancing around and waving steaks can change that.  We've basically started over, and since I cannot consistently get a good recall at great distances, our new method is to work on distance slowly.  For us, it's an issue of distraction level AND distance, because if he's really close, I can usually call him off something that is distracting.  Now he needs to prove he can be out at greater distances before we will allow it.  I think the first time around we were so focused on the distraction level that we didn't pay any attention to distance, and what we got were great recalls in some situations at some varying distances, but those few times when he's far out and gets distracted and decides to ignore us...he just reinforces that the recall is not serious.  One step forward, two steps back... 

diane303

I have a 30"check cord and she is marginally OK on the check cord (not great - she can tear out full speed after something and will pull your arm out of the socket if you try to grab it.  She knows that she is on a lead and will begrudgingly do your bidding while looking out over the horizon with that glazed look in her eye .  She has absolutely no interest in treats or affection when she is in the field.  Her eyes glaze over and the only thing that exists is the world in her nose. 

have you tried using gloves? It gives you a much better handle and you can reel in faster. Is she under 3 years old? This may be something that needs extreme repition and will get better with age.

Again,  It isn't my hands that get whacked, it's my arm.  I think that it's about 2 inches longer than the other one.  Besides, a check cord is like a leash, it's a physical restraint - she will come in with a check cord attached.  S

he's 4 years old.  I can't tell you how much we have worked on this stuff.  She's a rescue dog.  I got her when she was about 18 months.  She's a good girl except for this.   She has to learn that it is IMPORTANT for her to keep an ear peeled toward me, even when she is not restrained. 

 Diane I know we have 'conversed' about this before.  I think if you can get her to work with the e-collar I'd use it.  I know it would be the only way I could fully trust Bugsy off leash. He has gotten better but just this past winter he went after some deer instead of playing with the neighbor's dog and was over a mile from here when I found him.  He left our neighborhood and attempted to cross a busy road, I was terrified.  When I finally got him he looked at me like who are you, leave me alone I'm busy. A few other times away from here he did come back when he had gone out of sight so there is some improvement, but trustworthy no way.

We are going to the mountains this weekend and my stress levels are already up.  I am so envious of people that can let there dogs off lead.  Its a five minute walk on a trail to the river and he'll have to be on a drag line the whole time

In the book Control Unleashed it says that it can really depress those of us with dogs that don't find us the 'most' interesting thing to be constantly told that is the goal.  For some of us it will never be

And those with dogs that don't find them the most interesting thing need to communicate more strongly to the dog.  The hunting dog needs to understand that he must listen to the owner. Its crucial.  Everything I've read here that your advisors told you is right on.  Use the e-collar, it IS like a tap on the shoulder.  It says..."Hey, you...listen to me, I'm in control here, not you."

There is nothing wrong with using an e-collar with dogs that require that extra nudge.

Use the long line and the e-collar combined for a while until he gets it.  He will...he just hasn't heard those convincing words yet from you. 

CoBuHe

And those with dogs that don't find them the most interesting thing need to communicate more strongly to the dog.  The hunting dog needs to understand that he must listen to the owner. Its crucial.  Everything I've read here that your advisors told you is right on.  Use the e-collar, it IS like a tap on the shoulder.  It says..."Hey, you...listen to me, I'm in control here, not you."

There is nothing wrong with using an e-collar with dogs that require that extra nudge.

Use the long line and the e-collar combined for a while until he gets it.  He will...he just hasn't heard those convincing words yet from you.

agree

  I have a very birdy Vizsla and he is well behaved on the leash and has a great recall but he still needs constant reinforcement. I have to practice, practice, practice and the day I sit down and say he is trained will be the day he will start pulling or theday he will not return when called.

 For walking I use a sporn, we do not use it all the time but every now and then I will take him out in it, if he starts to get a little forward or pully. As for the recall, my motto is to never let him get away with not coming, whether it is in the house or the yard or outside and I always reward every single response to the word "come" no matter what. Our household is well trained in never using this word unless we intend to follow through with it and intend to reward the response.

 The results (Gunnar is almost 7 now) of this is a dog that I have not yet lost when running him off leash. The bad news is it takes a lot of work.

dgriego

CoBuHe

And those with dogs that don't find them the most interesting thing need to communicate more strongly to the dog.  The hunting dog needs to understand that he must listen to the owner. Its crucial.  Everything I've read here that your advisors told you is right on.  Use the e-collar, it IS like a tap on the shoulder.  It says..."Hey, you...listen to me, I'm in control here, not you."

There is nothing wrong with using an e-collar with dogs that require that extra nudge.

Use the long line and the e-collar combined for a while until he gets it.  He will...he just hasn't heard those convincing words yet from you.

I have a very birdy Vizsla and he is well behaved on the leash and has a great recall but he still needs constant reinforcement. I have to practice, practice, practice and the day I sit down and say he is trained will be the day he will start pulling or the day he will not return when called.

 For walking I use a sporn, we do not use it all the time but every now and then I will take him out in it, if he starts to get a little forward or pully.

 The results (Gunnar is almost 7 now) of this is a dog that I have not yet lost when running him off leash. The bad news is it takes a lot of work.

Thanks for the input and the support.  I started yesterday evening.  I took her out to the meadow on a long line and her e-collar.  I insisted that she heel down into the meadow, I released her and let her hunt and I called her and did what was necessary to get her to drop what she was doing and come to my side (first time - level 15).  I also worked with my setter.  She required a level 4 "tap".  We did this routine about three times and then heeled out of the meadow.  We were out there for about 15 - 20 minutes.  She was definitely "getting it" It was good.  I rewarded her for good behavior.  I will do this at least 3-4 times a week.   I'll incorporate it into walks and hunt training to wrap it all in something fun. 

kpwlee, I think, is the one who really knows my frustration the best.  The attitude of "go away, I'm busy" is what gets you. You have to really restrain yourself from getting angry at the dog. When we found Grace, I just threw her into her crate and left the room, I was so upset.  I felt so hopeless.  All the "bonding" and "+R" training seemed like just so much garbage to me at that moment.

dgriego, I hope I'll be able to trust Grace off leash as you do your Gunnar.  The Sporn works very well on my setter.  My pointer pulls so hard in the Sporn that she rubs her arm pits raw.   She has actually broken a prong collar. 

Now it's up to me to be consistent.   

 I use an e-collar with my golden Selli.  For us, it is not a matter of obedience, she has an excellent recall, both formal and informal.  Her problem is deer, when she is on a deer she can't hear us.  We tried one on Duffy also, since he would do the same thing, but he did not respond well to the e-collar.  When we put it on him, he got depressed and would walk two steps behind us, not enjoying himself.  When we saw that, we removed the collar and have not put it on him again.  Selli on the other hand, gets excited when she sees the collar since it means we will be going on an adventure.

My boyfriend and I discussed/argued about using an e-collar for well over two years.  I was totally opposed to it.  One day this spring, Selli took off after a deer, crossed a road and wound up behind a 4' fence.  Two years ago we lost a dog when he jumped a 4' fence after a deer and was hit by a car.  The thought of losing my girl to a car too, changed my mind. 

An e-collar can break through the hunting fog long enough so that the dog can hear and respond to its human and as long as it is used with great care and forethought, they can be very useful.

Believe me, until this spring, I never thought I would ever say what I just wrote, but you live and learn. 

yup. Deer were what convinced me to try an ecollar. Dogs ears and brain just shut down when deer were sighted and being hit by a car in pursuit seemed much crueler than a bit of a "tap" with an ecollar. I think the idea that one can be "the most interesting thing" to a dog at all times should be discarded.