Bird Dog Frustration

"She also is trained to an e-fence, so it isn't such a traumatic change". 

People often think that, but after training a dog that used an e-fence I can tell you it is much harder to train them. Everything in your first post makes total sense now. Those fences are bad news if you train your dog with an e-collar.

When a dog gets a shock from the fence it is usually at a very high level. The dog learns instantly how to turn it off by simply backing up. When I train with the collar I use it for attention. It is very hard to get a dog’s attention with a low level stimulation when he is used to being burnt on high by an e- fence that is never followed with a command. He just keeps going on his merry way after a correction and does what he wants. Now when you get out in the field off leash and he gets a correction he doesn’t know that the correction means come. He never had to do anything after a heavy correction before so he is most likely not going to associate a small correction from the e-collar with the handler. Even if he does he may choose ignore it because it didn’t feel as bad as all them other corrections he’s been getting.

From what I have found this makes it much harder to get focused control from a dog with the e-collar. I had to do a ton of leash and table work with that dog to get him over it.  He still takes higher levels on the collar than most dogs. This could be just the dog’s attitude but I doubt it. I think the e-fence makes them more tolerant to the e-collars and it works against the most important part of e-collar training which is conditioning a response to the stimulation.

Besides the initial few corrections when training on the e-fence (on a long line), I doubt if my dogs have ever had more than a warning tone from the receiver collars in the two years that I've been using an electric fence. When training Trudy, she learned the e-fence with a relatively low correction.  With Grace, I needed a higher (not the highest) correction.  They are so familiar with their boundary created by the transmitter, they hardly ever get the warning tone.   I like the Dogtra collar because it has a vibration instead of a tone.  So they don't generalize.  

First of all, I always make sure that the dog understands the command that I am reinforcing. To condition that command,  I use a continuous low stim (just bast a vibration - you could hold on to the collar with a minimum of discomfort), on line, to teach that I am the safe zone. I make it a game. I make sure that they know the command thoroughly first without the e-collar.    I scoot away from them, whistle or call come, give a low stim on the e-collar and pull them in toward me, stopping the stim when they reach my side.  Then big happy reward.  When I know that they "get it", I work across the yard off line the same way.  Always happy and upbeat.  When they see me pull out the e-collars, they are excited because they know that it might be field work. 

My setter responds to the vibration or a very mild correction. Actually, the last couple of times we were out in the field, I didn't have to use the e-collar at all on her.   My pointer will respond to the vibration or a mild stim only if she isn't in the "zone" after a bird smell.  This is the first time I've ever used a harsh correction on her with the e-collar and this was far from "frying her"  The highest I hit her with was a 26 out of 127 on a Dogtra e-colla (very small increments).  Her response was that she came back to the safe zone which is my side. 

diane303

The attitude of "go away, I'm busy" is what gets you. You have to really restrain yourself from getting angry at the dog. When we found Grace, I just threw her into her crate and left the room, I was so upset.  I felt so hopeless.  All the "bonding" and "+R" training seemed like just so much garbage to me at that moment.

I think that these emotions could be part of your problem... But let me say that it's a natural and understandable reaction - its also something that I have struggled with!!  Owning a Foxhound from hunting lines - I've learned plenty about humility and accepting my Foxhound for what he is - first and foremost a hunter!     

I have only skimmed through most of the posts and while it seems you've chosen to stick with an e-collar program I will share some thoughts...

Have you tried using an even longer line (50+ ft), made with lightweight material, knotted every few feet so you can step on it?  Have you tried building value for rewards/activities/commands so they can be used in a "hunting environment" as a true reward?  Have you made clear distinctions of what constitutes a "hunting environment" for your pointer (is there any middle ground where you can lay foundations without overwhelming your dog)?? Do you have a clear idea of what motivates your dog (other than birds!) and how you can increase that motivation and ultimately use it to your advantage? Have you worked on self-control exercises, that may seem unrelated (ie: stays, waits, leave its, call offs, attention, send-outs)?? Have you used scents, decoys and freedom to hunt as rewards? Have you set up controlled/mock hunt environments where you can set your dog up for success? Have you tried incorporating different release words that have clear meanings (ie: go hunt vs go play which could for instance mean you are free to do what you want within 20ft of me etc...) Have you considered that you may need to manage your dog for the rest of her life (ie - on-leash)?

My last question is one that took my 3-4 years to truly understand, accept and be comfortable with... There was so much exterior and internal pressure to have the perfect dog that it took a near miss incident for me to realize that my dog was too hunty to ever be without a leash. It really hurt my pride to come to that realization LOL.... It made me feel like a complete failure but I also felt like I was being cruel to my dog... A life on-leash for a hunter that is used to 4hrs+ off-leash hunting time? He now gets 2hrs of "hunting" on his 50ft line and 2+hrs of biking/skijoring, agility, OB/rally, swimming and frisbee.  Its not as horrifying as I once thought it would be and for the most part it keeps him in decent shape (physically and mentally) - although it doesn't compare to hunting off-leash... I chose this route because an ecollar would never be an option for me (person choice and I certainly don't condemn you for using one)...

I am quite familiar with the "glazed" look, as well as the half-hearted swivel of the ears, not to mention the "I need to look EVERYWHERE and be physically ANYWHERE but near you in order to hunt" behaviour. Its completely unintentional and is certainly NOT a testament to my Foxhound's intellect or obedience or his relationship with me. Although sometimes my pride takes it too seriously:) 

IMO - if your dog is perfectly behaved in the field on a long line, you have a lot to be proud of and are doing almost everything right... How did you transition from being on a long-line to no long-line? That could be where the problem lies.

 Hi, Jetty!  Thanks for your input.  You know that pointers have quite a bit of foxhound (and greyhound) in their bloodline and that is, for the most part, where they get their independence and the ability to hunt over a large range with handlers on horseback. 

jetty

I am quite familiar with the "glazed" look, as well as the half-hearted swivel of the ears, not to mention the "I need to look EVERYWHERE and be physically ANYWHERE but near you in order to hunt" behaviour. Its completely unintentional and is certainly NOT a testament to my Foxhound's intellect or obedience or his relationship with me. Although sometimes my pride takes it too seriously:) 

It took a while for me to come to the realization, also.  I am well aware that I will always have to manage Grace, in some way, either on leash or on an e-collar.  I've been able to differentiate the different behaviors allowed in my setter. She knows when she is allowed to go hunt and when it's time to go to work.  I am able to do agility outside with her.  But Grace's head fills up with hunting, even on leash, when she steps outside. 

I transitioned from a long line to off-leash in an enclosed area (as in 4 acre dog park).  BTW, never drop that line outside in the open - If your dog gets away from you, it can get tangled up somewhere where you won't be able to find it.  We were working on using the e-collar vibration, more as a signal than a correction, and a whistle.  She did very very well and made it clear that she understood both.  When we moved to a huge, relatively safe field, she did well to a point but got whiff of something on the edge of the woods and took off and nothing could stop her except a definite correction from her e-collar.  Inside she is very food motivated, outside there is really nothing that I've been able to find that beats birds.   

Recently, I have read that initiating play with your dog increases attention.  Grace is not big at playing, but lately, we have been successfully encouraging her to play.  I've found that she is much more interested in me in general (to the point of being pesky ) which is terrific. 

I do know that anger and punishment will only cause regression.