NILF Help!

Cassidys Mom

Of course, but that's not offering basic obedience, that's a dog being a dog . I trained both my dogs as puppies by capturing natural behaviors such as laying down, looking at me, and coming to me by marking with a clicker and rewarding with food. And there's no need to get nasty - I don't have a make the dog mentality, that's simply your inaccurate assumption. And I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions. What are you afraid of?

A "MAKE THE DOG" mentality is not anything to be ashamed of or deny.  As shown by Lesjie, it works and even your "cold shoulder" method that last for days works for you and your dog.  I just chose not to use NILIF because of the anquish put on the dog at the beginning.  I think in discussing NILIF, this is a very important disclosure.

BTW, I have not idea what your challenge is to me.  I feel I have addresed your inquiries.

DPU

 Dogs will then shape their behavior to avoid displeasure.  Dogs will shape their behavior for pleasure.  Kenya shaped her behavior to get pleasure, behavior she knows that works.  If Kenya did not get the pleasure (chicken) she would shape her behavior to avoid the frustration and anxiety of not getting what she wants.

Well, if dogs get frustrated and anxious every single time they don't get exactly that they want, then yeah, I guess mine are subjected to that probably every few minutes!  (and my cats too).  In the past five minutes, Beckham has demanded to go outside (he's an indoor cat), Marijke has pawed at my leg and meowed for food (sorry kitty, not getting popcorn it makes you barf), Coke tried to stick his nose in the popcorn bowl (no way buddy, you already had a huge dog dinner AND chicken), and Kenya wanted to sit on the couch where DH is already sitting (sorry, humans take priority).  NILIF or not, my home is not a free for all and I am not a servant.  That applies to dogs, cats, humans... 

Cassidys Mom

DPU

Liesje

Correct, but I consider it part of NILIF b/c I don't just freely hand out chicken, "no chicken in life is free".  My dogs don't just GET whatever they want, when they want it, simply because they want it. 

You have already subjected Kenya to behavior that is connected with anxiety and frustration.

 

 That is simply false. If you have to make up things to prove your argument, you've already lost. 

My statement is true.  What is the emotional state when Negative Punishment is imposed?

Liesje

DPU

 Dogs will then shape their behavior to avoid displeasure.  Dogs will shape their behavior for pleasure.  Kenya shaped her behavior to get pleasure, behavior she knows that works.  If Kenya did not get the pleasure (chicken) she would shape her behavior to avoid the frustration and anxiety of not getting what she wants.

 

Well, if dogs get frustrated and anxious every single time they don't get exactly that they want, then yeah, I guess mine are subjected to that probably every few minutes!  (and my cats too).  In the past five minutes, Beckham has demanded to go outside (he's an indoor cat), Marijke has pawed at my leg and meowed for food (sorry kitty, not getting popcorn it makes you barf), Coke tried to stick his nose in the popcorn bowl (no way buddy, you already had a huge dog dinner AND chicken), and Kenya wanted to sit on the couch where DH is already sitting (sorry, humans take priority).  NILIF or not, my home is not a free for all and I am not a servant.  That applies to dogs, cats, humans... 

Why did you leave out the beginning part of quote "You have already subjected Kenya to behavior that is connected with anxiety and frustration.  Why is this treatment forgotten.  Thats the start point of NILIF."   I did not say the mistreatment happens every single time.  The worst is at the beginning and then dog learns to cope or disaster happens.  Training has a beginning and an end.  I just won't do what you did at the beginning. 

DPU

My statement is true.  What is the emotional state when Negative Punishment is imposed?

I thought negative punishment means what the animal is doing removes something from the environment.  I don't use this form of punishment at all.  When my dogs do something I don't like, I simply ignore them, or sometimes correct them.  If they are barking at the door, I let them bark for about 5 seconds and if they don't stop, I verbally correct "hey, no!";).  I don't take away something if they don't stop barking.  I do not offer something to my dogs and then take it away.  Like I said before, I set them up for success.  I can't remember there ever being a time I went out with a treat pocket and the dogs did not earn those treats.  Most of our training sessions end simply because I run out of treats.

There are certain privileges the dogs earn, but again, these are not things that are presented and then taken away for the purpose of negative punishment.  For example, I don't let a new dog use the couch, and then decide the dog has to earn the privilege of the couch.  Thus, there is no anxiety because the dog didn't lose anything to begin with. 

DPU-What is more humane than just the absense of?  And, please don't get ridiculous nobody is starving the dog here, that's never the point.  If you know of them please tell because all I see after are adversives and maybe one other thing which isn't more humane either.

And, another thing, it's supposed to be the absence of something the dog wants not NEEDS--like cookies or toys or going out for pleaure and not to go to the bathroom. 

DPU

Why did you leave out the beginning part of quote "You have already subjected Kenya to behavior that is connected with anxiety and frustration.  Why is this treatment forgotten.  Thats the start point of NILIF."   I did not say the mistreatment happens every single time.  The worst is at the beginning and then dog learns to cope or disaster happens.  Training has a beginning and an end.  I just won't do what you did at the beginning. 

Read what I just posted.  I do not offer things to my dogs and then remove them as a form of punishment.  If I offered my dog his dinner and then took it away, yes, that would be negative punishment and might cause a dog some anxiety, but that is not AT ALL how I have ever trained my dogs.  I do not use basic necessities as rewards.  I do not ask them to do something they cannot do.  I ask them to do things they have already been trained to do (things that have been lured and rewarded or free shaped).  In the past 24 hours, I have made three new rules regarding Coke's NILIF plans.  I asked for three new things....he did each one on the first try.  I knew he could, that's why I asked for that particular behavior.  I would not ask him to do something he hasn't done before or doesn't understand.  I would not offer him a reward or privilege and then take it away.  Doing so is a really poor way to train a dog.   

Liesje

DPU

My statement is true.  What is the emotional state when Negative Punishment is imposed?

 

I thought negative punishment means what the animal is doing removes something from the environment.  I don't use this form of punishment at all.  When my dogs do something I don't like, I simply ignore them,

"simply ignore them" as a response to undesirable behavior is negative punishment.

DPU

"simply ignore them" as a response to undesirable behavior is negative punishment.

Then what do you do if your dog does something undesireable?  If ignoring is so bad for their psyche, then what exactly is your response?

In the context of training, the dog is very rarely ignored, b/c I think it's unfair to ask the dog to do something he doesn't understand.  So in the context of training, I don't use negative punishment.  Actually, I'd give a correction at that point, assuming what I asked of the dog is something he already knows and is perfectly capable of doing.  That's not negative punishment either. 

For example, yesterday Cassidy's Mom suggested I do stricter NILIF with Coke.  In the past, Coke always got to lick off my dinner plate.  As I stated earlier, I don't like to remove a privilege the dog has already been granted, so he was still offered the dinner plate.  Instead, I up the ante.  Coke knows sit and Coke knows stay.  He can hold a sit-stay while I walk out of sight and return.  Instead of just giving him the dinner plate, I had him do a sit-stay.  I walked 10 feet away, set the plate down, walked back to Coke, and released him to the plate.  If he had gotten out of the sit, I would have verbally corrected him and put him back in the sit, not remove the plate (negative punishment).  As it was, he did not budge at all, so he earned the plate he was used to getting by performing a command that he can already do in an even more difficult scenario.  A win-win all around.  The dog got exactly what he wanted by performing something he can easily do already, and I got to try stricter criteria.  No necessities were deprived, no negative punishment used.
 

willowchow

DPU-What is more humane than just the absense of?  And, please don't get ridiculous nobody is starving the dog here, that's never the point.  If you know of them please tell because all I see after are adversives and maybe one other thing which isn't more humane either.

And, another thing, it's supposed to be the absence of something the dog wants not NEEDS--like cookies or toys or going out for pleaure and not to go to the bathroom. 

Glad to see there are more qualification to NILIF.  If the dog thinks it is starving that is the important thing, not what the human thinks.  I am not sure what you mean by "absense of" but if it refers to the withholding of what the dog wants until a human defined correct behavior is offered, then the dog is experiencing stress, frustration, and anxiety....and don't forget those stress hormones being released that will be in the dog for days.

Liesje

DPU

"simply ignore them" as a response to undesirable behavior is negative punishment.

 

Then what do you do if your dog does something undesireable?  If ignoring is so bad for their psyche, then what exactly is your response?

In the context of training, the dog is very rarely ignored, b/c I think it's unfair to ask the dog to do something he doesn't understand.  So in the context of training, I don't use negative punishment.  Actually, I'd give a correction at that point, assuming what I asked of the dog is something he already knows and is perfectly capable of doing.  That's not negative punishment either. 

A correction would be Positive Punishment but if the dog anticipates the corrective action and fixes its behavior then its Negative Reinforcement.  NILIF is pure Negative Punishment and that is why you guys are so confused.   If a dog owner chooses to impliment NILIF they should also use Positive Reinforcement training methods to teach the dog acceptable behavior. 

DPU

Liesje

DPU

"simply ignore them" as a response to undesirable behavior is negative punishment.

 

Then what do you do if your dog does something undesireable?  If ignoring is so bad for their psyche, then what exactly is your response?

In the context of training, the dog is very rarely ignored, b/c I think it's unfair to ask the dog to do something he doesn't understand.  So in the context of training, I don't use negative punishment.  Actually, I'd give a correction at that point, assuming what I asked of the dog is something he already knows and is perfectly capable of doing.  That's not negative punishment either. 

A correction would be Positive Punishment but if the dog anticipates the corrective action and fixes its behavior then its Negative Reinforcement. 

Yes, I know this.  We were talking about negative punishment.  I already know I use positive reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative reinforcement.  I do not take things away (negative punishment).  Either the dog earns it outright with positive reinforcement, or the dog is corrected (usually verbally) and then earns it.  If it becomes clear the dog did not know the behavior as well as I thought, then I take a step back to something the dog can do.  Again the reward is not removed.  We work until it's earned.  I've never gone into a training session and come home with my rewards still intact.  Every training session, whether it's 2 minutes in the yard or 60 minutes at the club, is ended on a positive note with reward and praise.  I don't argue that negative punishment exists, but that's simply not how I train.  I don't like it, and our trainer will not allow her classes to end on a sour note.

I would like to know what your method is for dealing with undesirable behaviors.  That is what the OP is dealing with and if you are so against NILIF, perhaps you can present an alternative for her...

Liesje

Yes, I know this.  We were talking about negative punishment.  I already know I use positive reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative reinforcement.  I do not take things away (negative punishment). 

When you clicker train, withholding a reward (treat) until the dog offers a behavior is negative punishment.

DPU

Liesje

Yes, I know this.  We were talking about negative punishment.  I already know I use positive reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative reinforcement.  I do not take things away (negative punishment). 

When you clicker train, withholding a reward (treat) until the dog offers a behavior is negative punishment.

We're talking about NILIF, not clicker training. 

But, when I do clicker train, I free shape and start from scratch.  For example if I'm training a dog to put her paws inside a box, I click whatever behavior even remotely resembles that.  First, just looking at the box...sniffing it...pawing at it....putting the paw in...you get the idea.  If I'm withholding treats, then I'm not doing it right, gotta take a step back and think of something I CAN reward.  Negative punishment is useless because the dog is being free-shaped....what would she be punished for?  I have no expectations, so I can't withhold if she doesn't do something....anything she does gets rewarded at that point.  If the dog refuses to interact with the object or offer anything at all (luckily this has never happened to me but I've seen it happen in class), then we move on to something else, maybe proof some basic obedience where the dog will easily earn rewards.  Again, the goal is always for the dog to succeed and earn rewards. 

Liesje

I would like to know what your method is for dealing with undesirable behaviors.  That is what the OP is dealing with and if you are so against NILIF, perhaps you can present an alternative for her...

I foster multiple dogs at the same time and each come to me with their own unique behavior issues.  Sampson, a great dane mix, had a confidence issue and his comfort was to drink a lot of water and subsequently have big pee in short intervals.  PolyAnna, a little lab mix, was afraid of humans but loved my Danes and would always place herself between the front legs of a Great Dane for security.  Pags, a chow mix was dog aggressive (extreme case), Marvin was a SA hound and there are a lot more.  In order to successfully rehab, I have to be keenly aware of a training methods effect on the dog's psyche.  Unfortunately, members who advocate methods like Clicker Training or NILIF don't recognize the negatives of the methods.  When I try the methods on these dogs, I see right away because their psyche is so sensitive.  So I have been on a quest to find Pure Positive Training.  There is no one method that falls into this category.  I have found that the program I have here from a when a dog enters my house until the dog is rehabbed is proving to be successful..overall the program is Pure Positive. 

In that other thread, you did not understand and even made fun of me when I said I have a structured progressive training program where the dog has to master its behavior in one environment before moving onto the next setting.   The COME command is immediately worked on and because the dog naturally will come to human, I use positive reinforcement (affection) to encourage that command.  Being able to interrupt activity, be the behavior be good or bad is second.  The other basic obedience command are worked on once the dog has overcome its unique behavior problem and then I work on generalizing.  I try never to use food as rewards and focus on truly satisfying the dog's basic needs.  Because of my residence dogs and the fosters that have been here for awhile, I don't experience any of the issues the OP has or you.  The dogs all behave nicely and it has to be my focus on satisfying their basic needs, encourage socialization, and have a consistent schedule.  For example, I always have food on the kitchen counter and none of the dogs ever counter surf.  The dogs don't go bonker when I let them out the backdoor.  I don't know exactly why but I don't have the typical behavior problems that most encounter even though a lot of dogs have lived her for a long time.  It has to be the environment I have set up.