NILF Help!

Liesje

DPU

Liesje

Yes, I know this.  We were talking about negative punishment.  I already know I use positive reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative reinforcement.  I do not take things away (negative punishment). 

When you clicker train, withholding a reward (treat) until the dog offers a behavior is negative punishment.

 

We're talking about NILIF, not clicker training. 

I use CT as an example, keeping the backdoor closed until a dog offers the right behavior is NILIF.  You talk about setting up a dog for success but you can help but expose the dog to negative punishment.  You seem to do a good job in minimizing it, but you can not deny its existence at some point, even in free shaping.

Well, I see on the other post you don't train the basic commands until later.  That's why NILIF is so difficult for your dogs.  You can't do this method until the dog knows at least a sit or something. The method needs to be used properly.  So, yes, I do think now that you were causing your dogs stress, frustration and anxiety.  But, you were doing it wrong, used properly that doesn't happen.  It actually helps stress because the dogs knows what is expected of her. 

I can only imagine how wrong you were doing it too by your posts.  "blocking the door", here I open the door and Willow sits in front of the screen door for me to open.  She sits in front of me.  I don't block a thing.  She doesn't think she's hungry, she's not really into eating anyway.  But, on the days she is she sits faster.  The worst case scenario is she doesnt' sit because she doesn't care enough and we ask her again. It's not like she's out of luck for food for the day or anything.  If that's what you were doing then yes, you were being abusive as you implied I was.

Again, I will ask.  What exactly do you do to get the results you want?  You mentioned what your goals are but what do you do to get there?  For example, you want Pags to come and she won't.  Now what?  Do you do something to get her to come?  Do you just say, OK Pags you don't have to come because I don't want to cause you any stress?  What??  I really want to know.  You seem to have much experience.

willowchow

You still didn't really say how you are achieving these goals.  You pointed out what your goals are but how do you get to them? 

And, yes, now I can see how NILIF would not work in  your home.  If you are teaching all the basics later, like sit, stay, down, then NILIF would not work for you. 

You are going to have to be specific in what you want me to respond to.  Last Year besides my 3 Great Dane residence dogs, I had about 15 fosters come through my house.  I don't seem to have the problems that others have and frankly if these problems are typical and NILIF is the resolve, then I should have these problems.  Maybe if you list the behavior that NILIF should be used, I might be able to respond.... that is if it ever existed here.  For example, a problem would be the dog jumps up on people....I don't recall that ever being a problem here but it would be if Dane did it...but that hasn't happened.

Copied from above---Again, I will ask.  What exactly do you do to get the results you want?  You mentioned what your goals are but what do you do to get there?  For example, you want Pags to come and she won't.  Now what?  Do you do something to get her to come?  Do you just say, OK Pags you don't have to come because I don't want to cause you any stress?  What??  I really want to know.  You seem to have much experience.

OK, for example, Willow was very food aggressive when she came here.  I was having issues putting the food down without her coming toward it and that was causing a safety issue for me.  So, with NILIF she is already in a sit, I then put the food down, I tell her to stay--this is two commands for one thing--Willow has a tough life---I back away, then tell her "OK".  She is in control and I am safe.

Another example--She likes to run off our steps on our deck.  I make her "sit", then I go down the stairs first, then tell her "OK" and she follows.  This way, no pulling me down a bunch of wood steps. 

There are so many little things we do that I make her do stuff like that for.  It's not every single time anymore like when she first got here but pretty often throughout the day. 

There are things she does get for free like water, attention, her beds.  That's why I don't see it as depriving her of the basic necessities as you say, it's really just extra's that she's working for.  Or, in our special case, my safety. 

willowchow

Well, I see on the other post you don't train the basic commands until later.  That's why NILIF is so difficult for your dogs. 

To be clear, I have never attempted NILIF nor would I try, foster dogs coming from a kill shelter into a home can not handle it.  It takes too much of a toll on a sensitve dog's psyche and although it appears to work, I think it creates other problems down the road, especial in the human-dog relationship.

DPU

If a dog owner chooses to impliment NILIF they should also use Positive Reinforcement training methods to teach the dog acceptable behavior. 

Well, duh. Everyone I know that implements NILIF uses positive reinforcement training to teach acceptable behavior. What's your point?
 

Oh, please, DPU, that is such a bunch of you know what.  Willow was outside alone, starving (for real) for two years, TWO years.  And, it did nothing but help her. 

And, don't talk about the human/dog bond.  What is your relationship with your dogs?  My dog learned what was expected of her, self control, trust in me. 

First you said it cause stress especially in the beginning.  Now, your saying it damages the relationship between human/dog?  All this and you've never tried the method.  And, it doesn't appear to work, it does work.  Willow being here five years later is proof of that.

DPU

Liesje

Yes, I know this.  We were talking about negative punishment.  I already know I use positive reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative reinforcement.  I do not take things away (negative punishment). 

When you clicker train, withholding a reward (treat) until the dog offers a behavior is negative punishment.

So you give the treat BEFORE the dog offers the behavior? Or is clicker training evil too?

Oh, this just gets sillier and sillier. You refuse to answer direct questions about how YOU train, you ignore the parts of our posts that don't fit your preconceived notion that NILIF is cruel, and completely misrepresent everything we say and then argue against THAT instead of what we actually posted. Like I said before, jerking our chains. Don't you have anything better to do? i could go back through all my posts and copy the questions that you've ducked, but *I* have better things to do.

BTW, I find it fascinating that you know that dogs you rescue from shelters have behavior problems due to NILIF. Not only do the rescue people on the German shepherd board I'm a moderator on use NILIF, generally the behavior problems their foster dogs come with are due to lack of socialization, being tied out in a backyard all their life, NO training whatsoever, gross neglect, or abusive training using harsh physical corrections. So I guess the people who dropped the dogs of at the shelter told the workers there that NILIF ruined their dog and they told you? Or is this just a wild guess? That's a direct question, maybe you could answer this time.

I guess you can say I assume every new dog that comes here is food aggressive.  I don't really know for sure.  The dog initially eats separately from the others, behind a baby gate, in full view of the other dogs eating, and the dog is handfed.  In a couple of days, handing feeding stops, and then in a few more days, the baby gate is just propped up.  The gate disappears and the dog is able to eat freely with others.   My goal is satisfy the hunger need and make sure the dog eats enough and give the dog confidence to know that next meal will be coming.  I create an environment where the dog feels secure and resulting behavior is calm.  This can be as short as a week or as long as a couple of months.

For some reason when a new dog comes here they are afraid of car rides and when they are here for a little bit, a car ride is one of their best pleasures.  When the dogs knows we are going for a car ride, they are run to the car and wait for the door to be opened for them.  Then they hop right in.  I did not teach them this, they just did it on their own or learned from each other.

I strongly believe in satisfying the dog's needs with respect to food, snacks, exercise, companionship, and structure so they turn out to not have a lot of WANTS.  That may be my secret.

 You still haven't answered willowchow's question, and she's asked it twice. I'll ask it again, for the third time:

What exactly do you do to get the results you want?  You mentioned what your goals are but what do you do to get there?  For example, you want Pags to come and she won't.  Now what?  Do you do something to get her to come?  Do you just say, OK Pags you don't have to come because I don't want to cause you any stress?

A specific question, why won't you give a specific answer?

DPU

My goal is satisfy the hunger need and make sure the dog eats enough and give the dog confidence to know that next meal will be coming. 

What do you do with a dog that 'thinks' they are always hungry even after they've eaten plenty of food? Do you just keep feeding them and allow them to get fat?  Aren't you concerned about bloat?

One more thing--another common sense thing--I didn't start any type of training until she was settled in.  I don't know maybe it's obvious to me, but I wouldn't expect a dog that thought it was starving, one day from shelter to start any type of training be it NILIF or anything else.  There is obviously an adjustment period.   

And, you don't know if you've ever really even worked with real food aggression.  Which I'm guessing you havent' because a dog with food aggression would be pretty scary to sit there and try to hand feed, especially at first as you said.  And, in front of other dogs, it would escalate the aggression for sure.

I still don't really know what if any real methods you are using. It seems like you just hope for the best.

Maybe you are just trying to aggravate on purpose.  It seems every post I make has to be a clarification of something that should be obvious or defending myself.

I can't discuss this anymore because I am getting increasingly upset with the suggestions that my dog is neglected or lacking her basic needs in some way. 

willowchow

I can't discuss this anymore because I am getting increasingly upset with the suggestions that my dog is neglected or lacking her basic needs in some way.  It's quite the opposite, Willow wants for nothing in reality. 

Ahhh, that's exactly what he wants! Personally I find it amusing, but alas, it's time for bed.

Cassidys Mom

So you give the treat BEFORE the dog offers the behavior? Or is clicker training evil too?

As I said, it is important in dog rehab how a training method effects the dog's psyche.  No training method is evil if it works and has a lasting postive effect.  I most certainly have clicker trained a dog who has a normal psyche, but for the true SA hound, it was a disaster and a lot of work around had to be created.  Unfortunately the dog suffered because of misinformation about the training method.

Yes, I can only guess why dogs end up the way they do in shelters.  With certainty, I am sure a dog ended up there when the "MAKE THE DOG" mentality approach was applied and the dog failed to respond.

Cassidys Mom

DPU

My goal is satisfy the hunger need and make sure the dog eats enough and give the dog confidence to know that next meal will be coming. 

 

What do you do with a dog that 'thinks' they are always hungry even after they've eaten plenty of food? Do you just keep feeding them and allow them to get fat?  Aren't you concerned about bloat?

Have not had that happened long term.  The is typical behavior of emaciated dogs but it is not long term.  The feeding ritual I described earlier may resolve such behavior.  If it was a continuous problem, I don't know what the answer would be but I would work diligently and focus on resolving it.