NILF Help!

Cassidys Mom

DPU

All dogs will offer the basic obedience naturally to their owner...

 

On what planet do all dogs offer basic obedience? Every single dog I've ever owned has required training. 

You have never seen a dog sit on its own.  You have never seen a dog lie down on its own.  You have never seen a dog lifts its paw.  You have never seen a dog come to you.  These are natural behaviors and it is so easy to reinforce and make the behaviors predictable.  But I can see if someone that has a "MAKE THE DOG" mentality, they would have no insight to this.

DPU

 Again, serious subject on the proper and humane treatment of dogs and it is being made light of.

The subject here is NILIF.  The OP has already committed to using this method with her puppy. 

DPU

Cassidys Mom

DPU

All dogs will offer the basic obedience naturally to their owner...

 

On what planet do all dogs offer basic obedience? Every single dog I've ever owned has required training. 

You have never seen a dog sit on its own.  You have never seen a dog lie down on its own.  You have never seen a dog lifts its paw.  You have never seen a dog come to you.  These are natural behaviors and it is so easy to reinforce and make the behaviors predictable.

Well, that's EXACTLY what Kenya did earlier (offer behaviors on her own) but you called it avoiding displeasure, soooooo....which is it? 

Cassidys Mom

DPU

Liesje

Well, I like NILIF because it empowers both me and my dogs at the same time.  For example, DH was just cutting up chicken for a salad.  Normally, we do not just give our dogs our human food, but Kenya went up to DH and sat a few feet away, offered several seconds of eye contact, then did a down and held it, all on her own.  DH gave her a little piece of chicken. 

Dogs will shape its behavior to get pleasure and shape its behavior to avoid displeasure. 

 

Please explain exactly what displeasure Kenya would be avoiding in this case if she didn't get any chicken that she wouldn't normally have gotten anyway. Or are you saying that any time there is food around because the humans in the house are preparing a meal for themselves they should give some to the dog? Wouldn't that create a beggar? And create a dog with the expectation that they are entitled to any and all food, in which case, depriving them of it (which would often be in their best interest, particularly if it were a dangerous food such as raisins or chocolate) WOULD be stressful?

There's that "MAKE THE DOG" mentality again.  As I read the story, Kenya shaped her behavior to get pleasure and it worked.  In this case the dog's freely chosen behavior was defined by Kenya and not the owner.

Liesje

The subject here is NILIF.  The OP has already committed to using this method with her puppy. 

Thats fine.  There is a proper and humane way (but not recommended by me) and then there's the "MAKE THE DOG" way.

DPU

There's that "MAKE THE DOG" mentality again.  As I read the story, Kenya shaped her behavior to get pleasure and it worked.  In this case the dog's freely chosen behavior was defined by Kenya and not the owner.

Correct, but I consider it part of NILIF b/c I don't just freely hand out chicken, "no chicken in life is free".  My dogs don't just GET whatever they want, when they want it, simply because they want it.  I don't allow that for my pets, kids I'm in charge of, friends in my home, people coming into my yard....  Kenya wanted that chicken and DH felt her offered behaviors earned the chicken.  It's a win-win, b/c now the dog knows better than to jump all over DH for chicken, she knows she might be able to get it by using some self-control, and we know that she's most likely going to try a down-stay for chicken rather than counter surfing. 

Same thing with going outside.  I don't typically ask for sits or whatnot, I don't really care what the dogs choose to do as long as its NOT trying to push the door open and jump all over me.  Sometimes they just stand there, sometimes they try a sit or a down...whatever.  The important thing is that they have a choice and I have dogs that don't (literally) walk all over me. 

DPU-When you practice NILIF the whole idea is that you are asking the dog to do something it already knows how to do to get something else it would like.  I could see the problems you are describing possibly happening if you're asking a dog to sit for things and it doesn't know sit--I could see that becoming upsetting.  But, the dog is supposed to know the command you are asking for already.  You aren't teaching the command at this point.  If the dog doesn't know commands, then you can't use NILIF. 

You could use a little common sense like I do.  For example, if your dogs have to go so badly in the morning, then don't make then sit for the first out of the day.  But, no reason why they can't slow down and focus for the rest of the day.  If they are sick obviously, they don't have to do anything.  I'm sorry, the food one, I just don't get.  So, they are jumping around all excited for food.  So???  They MIGHT be hungry but they are fed on a regular schedule, right?? So, having to sit before the bowl hits the floor really shouldn't be harming them.  I'm sorry if you think that's abusive.  But, frankly, it seems to me like your dogs take advantage of you.  You feel sorry for them when there is no need. 

Also, another point---you aren't supposed to be MAKING the dog do anything.  The dog can choose to not do what you ask. 

DPU

Cassidys Mom

DPU

All dogs will offer the basic obedience naturally to their owner...

 

On what planet do all dogs offer basic obedience? Every single dog I've ever owned has required training. 

You have never seen a dog sit on its own.  You have never seen a dog lie down on its own.  You have never seen a dog lifts its paw.  You have never seen a dog come to you. 

Of course, but that's not offering basic obedience, that's a dog being a dog . I trained both my dogs as puppies by capturing natural behaviors such as laying down, looking at me, and coming to me by marking with a clicker and rewarding with food. And there's no need to get nasty - I don't have a make the dog mentality, that's simply your inaccurate assumption. And I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions. What are you afraid of?

Liesje

Correct, but I consider it part of NILIF b/c I don't just freely hand out chicken, "no chicken in life is free".  My dogs don't just GET whatever they want, when they want it, simply because they want it. 

You have already subjected Kenya to behavior that is connected with anxiety and frustration.  Why is this treatment forgotten.  Thats the start point of NILIF.  Dogs will then shape their behavior to avoid displeasure.  Dogs will shape their behavior for pleasure.  Kenya shaped her behavior to get pleasure, behavior she knows that works.  If Kenya did not get the pleasure (chicken) she would shape her behavior to avoid the frustration and anxiety of not getting what she wants.  She would probably walk away.  It works great but I have a problem with subjecting the dog to anxiety at the beginnin when other methods are more friendly.

DPU

I wish those that recommend NILIF would read Suzanne Clothier book Bones Would Rain from the Sky, actually its If a Dog's Prayers Were Answered, Bones Would Rain from the Sky. 

I have. I also spent an entire weekend at a Suzanne Clothier seminar in March of last year so I'm well aware of her training methods and philosophy. I've seen them in person.

And how convenient that you get to pick apart everyone else while keeping your stellar training methods secret and beyond public scrutiny. If they're so perfect wouldn't we all benefit from the pearls of your wisdom?

 BTW, the word is spelled somersault, and I don't do them, either literally or figuratively.
 

willowchow

DPU-When you practice NILIF the whole idea is that you are asking the dog to do something it already knows how to do to get something else it would like.  I could see the problems you are describing possibly happening if you're asking a dog to sit for things and it doesn't know sit--I could see that becoming upsetting.  But, the dog is supposed to know the command you are asking for already.  You aren't teaching the command at this point.  If the dog doesn't know commands, then you can't use NILIF. 

You could use a little common sense like I do.  For example, if your dogs have to go so badly in the morning, then don't make then sit for the first out of the day.  But, no reason why they can't slow down and focus for the rest of the day.  If they are sick obviously, they don't have to do anything.  I'm sorry, the food one, I just don't get.  So, they are jumping around all excited for food.  So???  They MIGHT be hungry but they are fed on a regular schedule, right?? So, having to sit before the bowl hits the floor really shouldn't be harming them.  I'm sorry if you think that's abusive.  But, frankly, it seems to me like your dogs take advantage of you.  You feel sorry for them when there is no need. 

 Excellent post willowchow!
 

I've read these discussions before and seems to be there is no training method.  The dogs do whatever they do because unfortunately DPU seems to feel that asking anything of them is abusive or going to cause them some sort of stress.  It's the lack of knowing what is expected of them that causes stress. 

Did it ever occur that maybe they are acting all hyper at the door like that because they don't know what will get it open?  My dog knows if her bum hits the floor the door will open, no stress there.

DPU

Liesje

Correct, but I consider it part of NILIF b/c I don't just freely hand out chicken, "no chicken in life is free".  My dogs don't just GET whatever they want, when they want it, simply because they want it. 

You have already subjected Kenya to behavior that is connected with anxiety and frustration.

 That is simply false. If you have to make up things to prove your argument, you've already lost.
 

DPU-What other methods are more friendly?  Please tell me because this was THE most gentle way to get some sort of leadership over her without things like a choke collar and yelling, etc.  I would have been bitten a thousand times over if this method was what you are trying to make it out to be.