NILF Help!

Sigh..... I guess we DO have to have this silly argument again. Okay, I'll bite.

DPU

By the dog not getting what it wants, the dog will experience anxiety and frustration.

The dog DOES get what it wants, hence, no anxiety and frustration.

DPU

A rigid NILIF program and a repeated barrage of being in frustrating situations can cause these stress hormones to be released too often and possibly making the dog go into a chronic state of fear that will be exhibited with other problem behaviors.

The part in bold I agree with. But a rigid NILIF program does not cause this to happen because there IS no barrage of frustrating situations. NILIF can and should be adapted to the capability of the dog, so that the dog very quickly learns how to earn what they want, which is the exact opposite of frustrating. It's empowering. By offering the dog rules and structure that are consistent, clear, and concise, stress and confusion are removed.

 What you're describing - constantly taking things away from the dog and depriving them of things they want is not NILIF.
 

I don't understand because to give a simple sit really shouldn't be so hard for the dog that it delay's anything.  Are you saying that your dogs are jumping all over and so excited that they won't do a simple command that they know quickly??  It really doesn't make sense.  Do you let them do whatever they want to the point where if they don't get to do what they want they are distraught for days?? 

DPU

Keeping the backdoor closed until the dog is calmly sitting at the backdoor is an example.  The dog has to pee for Petey sake, how cruel is that.  The dog does not eat until the dog is calm when the dish is presented.  The dog is hungary for crying out loud.  In those two examples, the owner should explore why the dog is in an excited state.  To me, those problem behavior are fixable by maybe feeding the dog more often or letting the dog out more often.  I even think I read one poster in this thread give their dog the silent treatment for days because the dog needed an attitude adjustment.  Depriving companionship and love, I don't know what to say to that.  I know what NILIF means and introducing other more humane training methods into the mix, does not change its meaning. 

#1 - If my dogs REALLY need to potty, I usually just let them out. I can tell the difference because they bang the bells on the back door more forcefully. If they just want to go hang out outside, they have to ask, which they do by sitting and making eye contact, and then I open the door immediately. They go out as often as they want. To come inside, I usually make them sit, wait and make eye contact first, but sometimes I don't. What am I depriving them of by making them wait 3 seconds before coming back in the house? How about if I make them sit and wait before being released to jump in the car, what am I depriving them of then? Making them sit and make eye contact before throwing the ball?

#2 -  As I've mentioned before, I have a dog that would literally eat until he exploded, and it has nothing to do with hunger. He's feed a high quality diet twice a day in a quantity appropriate to maintain a healthy weight. Didn't you have an overweight dog not long ago that you were looking for suggestions to take excess weight off? If if fed my dogs more often, and as much as they wanted they'd be fat. That is not a healthy state for a dog. And as I mentioned, the difference between waiting to eat until released vs a free for all dive on the food bowl as it hits the floor is maybe 5-10 seconds. A dog that has been eating regular healthy meals their entire life is not being harmed by a delay of 5-10 seconds.

NILIF is an extremely humane training method. Suzanne Clothier is the most humane trainer I know of - check out her website: www.flyingdogpress.com especially the article Leadership Basics, or read her book, Bones Would Rain From the Sky. Her training is based on developing a non confrontational relationship of mutual trust and respect with your dog. She is a proponent of NILIF, although she calls it by a different name.

A household where there are no rules and the dogs get whatever they want whenever they want simply by demanding it is a recipe for disaster.

Well, I like NILIF because it empowers both me and my dogs at the same time.  For example, DH was just cutting up chicken for a salad.  Normally, we do not just give our dogs our human food, but Kenya went up to DH and sat a few feet away, offered several seconds of eye contact, then did a down and held it, all on her own.  DH gave her a little piece of chicken.  Good effort.  We like to reward a creative dog that offers behaviors on her own.  The dog walked away with her tail wagging.  She got exactly what she wanted and she knew what to try in order to get it.  Right now, both dogs really want to lick the plate.  They are holding downs in front of DH.  I'm guessing he's going to give them the plate.  None of these behaviors are things DH forced them to do and not doing them would deprive the dogs of nothing - they don't normally get to take human food whenever they want it, but now they know that they can earn it.

Cassidys Mom

Sigh..... I guess we DO have to have this silly argument again. Okay, I'll bite.

DPU

By the dog not getting what it wants, the dog will experience anxiety and frustration.

 

The dog DOES get what it wants, hence, no anxiety and frustration.

DPU

A rigid NILIF program and a repeated barrage of being in frustrating situations can cause these stress hormones to be released too often and possibly making the dog go into a chronic state of fear that will be exhibited with other problem behaviors.

 

The part in bold I agree with. But a rigid NILIF program does not cause this to happen because there IS no barrage of frustrating situations. NILIF can and should be adapted to the capability of the dog, so that the dog very quickly learns how to earn what they want, which is the exact opposite of frustrating. It's empowering. By offering the dog rules and structure that are consistent, clear, and concise, stress and confusion are removed.

 What you're describing - constantly taking things away from the dog and depriving them of things they want is not NILIF. 

I don't see how one can deny that frustration and anxiety are the key elements in NILIF.  That is how OC's Negative Punishment works.  What is going on in the dogs mind when the dog want to go out the backdoor and the human is holding it shut, what else but anxiety.  By the human not recognizing it doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the dog.  A dog will shape its behavior in order to avoid displeasure.  But the human can justify this by denial and overlook the harm if the method accomplishes its purpose in a speedy way.

I see now there is a qualification in using NILIF, that the dog has to have the capacity to take the treatment safely.

willowchow

I don't understand because to give a simple sit really shouldn't be so hard for the dog that it delay's anything.  Are you saying that your dogs are jumping all over and so excited that they won't do a simple command that they know quickly??  It really doesn't make sense.  Do you let them do whatever they want to the point where if they don't get to do what they want they are distraught for days?? 

I don't see why the dog owner is teaching the dog to sit using the backdoor to block the dog from reliefing an bodily urgency.  All dogs will offer the basic obedience naturally to their owner and it is at that time that teaching should take place using OC PosR, not when the dog want to go outside to pee.

Cassidys Mom

#1 - If my dogs REALLY need to potty, I usually just let them out. I can tell the difference because they bang the bells on the back door more forcefully. If they just want to go hang out outside, they have to ask, which they do by sitting and making eye contact, and then I open the door immediately. They go out as often as they want. To come inside, I usually make them sit, wait and make eye contact first, but sometimes I don't. What am I depriving them of by making them wait 3 seconds before coming back in the house? How about if I make them sit and wait before being released to jump in the car, what am I depriving them of then? Making them sit and make eye contact before throwing the ball?

I count the use of the word "MAKE" six time in the above paragraph.  That clearly defines NILIF to me.  I teach my dogs using other methods and after that teaching the dog freely offers the behavior.

Liesje

Well, I like NILIF because it empowers both me and my dogs at the same time.  For example, DH was just cutting up chicken for a salad.  Normally, we do not just give our dogs our human food, but Kenya went up to DH and sat a few feet away, offered several seconds of eye contact, then did a down and held it, all on her own.  DH gave her a little piece of chicken. 

Dogs will shape its behavior to get pleasure and shape its behavior to avoid displeasure.  I believe this axiom.  NILIF is defined by the latter. 

DPU

willowchow

I don't understand because to give a simple sit really shouldn't be so hard for the dog that it delay's anything.  Are you saying that your dogs are jumping all over and so excited that they won't do a simple command that they know quickly??  It really doesn't make sense.  Do you let them do whatever they want to the point where if they don't get to do what they want they are distraught for days?? 

I don't see why the dog owner is teaching the dog to sit using the backdoor to block the dog from reliefing an bodily urgency.  All dogs will offer the basic obedience naturally to their owner and it is at that time that teaching should take place using OC PosR, not when the dog want to go outside to pee.

If a dog seriously has to pee SO BAD that it can't practice decent doggy manners before going out, then the owner should first of all take the dog out more often. That would solve that problem right there, not NILIF/no NILIF. 

I don't require my dogs to sit before they go out to potty, but I DO require that they are not jumping all over me, lunging at the door, and pushing the door open as they trip me trying to barge their way out.  Running up to the door, standing there calmly and waiting for me to catch up and open the door is all I ask.  This does not require ANY more time than if they were going nutso and lunging at the door. 

DPU

Cassidys Mom

#1 - If my dogs REALLY need to potty, I usually just let them out. I can tell the difference because they bang the bells on the back door more forcefully. If they just want to go hang out outside, they have to ask, which they do by sitting and making eye contact, and then I open the door immediately. They go out as often as they want. To come inside, I usually make them sit, wait and make eye contact first, but sometimes I don't. What am I depriving them of by making them wait 3 seconds before coming back in the house? How about if I make them sit and wait before being released to jump in the car, what am I depriving them of then? Making them sit and make eye contact before throwing the ball?

I count the use of the word "MAKE" six time in the above paragraph.  That clearly defines NILIF to me.  I teach my dogs using other methods and after that teaching the dog freely offers the behavior.

My dogs freely offer the behavior too. "Make" in this case was just a question of semantics. I notice that you jumped all over that one word instead of answering my earlier question about how the dog is harmed by sitting and making eye contact before coming in the house after pottying, or before jumping in the car to go for a ride, or before throwing a ball for them.

Make may define NILIF to you, but it doesn't to me, or to my dogs. Make implies force, and although I used that word rather than some other word that would perhaps better describe the process, I can assure you that there is no force involved. And since I practice NILIF and you don't, I'd submit that my understanding of the technique is more accurate, as is how adept I am at reading my own dogs' behavior.

Could you also please describe in detail what your methods are for teaching dogs to freely offer behaviors, and exactly what sort of behaviors you require? Are you familiar with Suzanne Clothier? Do you believe she's an evil purveyor of stress and anxiety among dogs?
 

DPU

Liesje

Well, I like NILIF because it empowers both me and my dogs at the same time.  For example, DH was just cutting up chicken for a salad.  Normally, we do not just give our dogs our human food, but Kenya went up to DH and sat a few feet away, offered several seconds of eye contact, then did a down and held it, all on her own.  DH gave her a little piece of chicken. 

Dogs will shape its behavior to get pleasure and shape its behavior to avoid displeasure. 

Please explain exactly what displeasure Kenya would be avoiding in this case if she didn't get any chicken that she wouldn't normally have gotten anyway. Or are you saying that any time there is food around because the humans in the house are preparing a meal for themselves they should give some to the dog? Wouldn't that create a beggar? And create a dog with the expectation that they are entitled to any and all food, in which case, depriving them of it (which would often be in their best interest, particularly if it were a dangerous food such as raisins or chocolate) WOULD be stressful?

DPU

All dogs will offer the basic obedience naturally to their owner...

On what planet do all dogs offer basic obedience? Every single dog I've ever owned has required training.
 

Cassidys Mom

DPU

All dogs will offer the basic obedience naturally to their owner...

 

On what planet do all dogs offer basic obedience? Every single dog I've ever owned has required training.
 

DPU must be very lucky.  Remember his dogs offer recalls on day 1.

Cassidys Mom

My dogs freely offer the behavior too. "Make" in this case was just a question of semantics. I notice that you jumped all over that one word instead of answering my earlier question about how the dog is harmed by sitting and making eye contact before coming in the house after pottying, or before jumping in the car to go for a ride, or before throwing a ball for them.

Make may define NILIF to you, but it doesn't to me, or to my dogs. Make implies force, and although I used that word rather than some other word that would perhaps better describe the process, I can assure you that there is no force involved. And since I practice NILIF and you don't, I'd submit that my understanding of the technique is more accurate, as is how adept I am at reading my own dogs' behavior.

Could you also please describe in detail what your methods are for teaching dogs to freely offer behaviors, and exactly what sort of behaviors you require? Are you familiar with Suzanne Clothier? Do you believe she's an evil purveyor of stress and anxiety among dogs?

You are doing a summersault to further qualify your use of NILIF but whenever this method is recommended it is represented as pure Negative Punishment.  I also see that you are standing on laurels as a result of using NILIF but you avoid recognizing the initial anxiety impact on the dog.  As I said sometimes it works for some dogs and for those dogs that it does not work for, well they end up in shelters and a few come to live with me where I do rehab.

I wish those that recommend NILIF would read Suzanne Clothier book Bones Would Rain from the Sky, actually its If a Dog's Prayers Were Answered, Bones Would Rain from the Sky.  The way NILIF is represented here, no dog would pray for that treatment.

Your request for me to describe in detail what my methods are for teaching dogs to freely offer behavior....is denied.  Would be off-topic.  I can tell you I have moved toward the relationship and affection as the core in teaching, quite different from conventional methods but most rewarding for both the human and the dog.

Liesje

DPU must be very lucky.  Remember his dogs offer recalls on day 1.

You were corrected when you first made that false statement and I see now you continue to make that false statement.  It just goes to your creditability, that all.  Again, serious subject on the proper and humane treatment of dogs and it is being made light of.