NILF Help!

Okay I admit it I AM  THE ORIGINAL CYBER TROGLODYTE    WTH is   NILF  so far I am guessing" Non illeagal life form "is most likely not what you mean...... yeah I  know double negative but sheesh I am guessing here .... HELP??
Bonita of Bwana

"nothing in life is free"

the toy thing- why does the dog have free access to toys? if nothing in life is free, that includes toys. Toys should only come from you in response to good behavior by the pup. Toys need to be under your control.

the_gopher

Chuffy what would you recommend when walking away means she just latches on and the only way I can get her to stop is to leave the room...and then when I return anywhere between 5 minutes to an hour one night...she just goes back to doing it a short time later?

My response would be instantaneous - leave the room again.  Do it a few times in a row and the penny should drop.  Don't lave the room for an hour - when you get back what are the chances she even remembered "why" you upped and left in the first place.  Leave for say, 30 seconds.  When you have to leave again, leave for maybe 1 minute.  I'm not saying take a stop watch, just roughly that length of time.... ie, short!

the_gopher

OR as my SO has observed when I leave the room she'll just grab a toy and self amuse and look none the worse for the wear.  

Remove the toys.  Nothing In Life Is Free!!!!!!  Toys are EARNED, just like anything else

the_gopher

We have begun isolating her in the kitchen

IMO removing the dog to another room is a reasonable option provided it is done, SWIFTLY, calmly and in silence - don't clutter the message with chatter to the dog.  Eg. "That was very naughty so now you are going in the kitchen etc etc etc".  Don't even look at her.  Don't give her "chances" either - make it very clear exactly which behaviour is unacceptable by reacting immediately and doing so consistently each time she slips up.  Removing yourself is beter IMO, is neater and simpler and there is immediate withdrawal of contact which kind of says "Nope, that is not tolerated."  If you are moving the dog to another room, they do get attention of a sort and if you are becoming frustrated they pick up on that and it doesn't help.  (A trailing line might be a good idea if you have to move her to another room for a short "calm down period";)

What do you mean by "more subdued"?  Could you describe her body language?  I think it would be helpful to learn if she is actually learning something, if the "time out" is actually helping he rto calm down and behave more appropriately, or if she is just anxiously "not-doing-very-much" to avoid being banished. 

By subdued, I mean she is in better control of herself.  Still playful but NOT at the level of excitment where her puppy brain goes out the window and humans become the chew toy again.  She's wagging her tail, bright eyed but not crazy puppy eyed in 110% bitey mode towards us (or chiefly me, though since I started being more stern and no nonsense and calmer we are seeing an increase of her biting my SO instead).  She's definately not anxious when we take her out of the kitchen.  She does get chewies in there to calm down and work her teeth on that instead - or she'll chew the cabinents!. 

We do remove ourselves for about 30-60 seconds now, in lieu of timing HER out.  I only remove myself longer if I feel my frustration is up and I need a time out more than her - so I go to my room and do some deep breathing and come back calmer.  We need to revisit this though because I need to find someone to tether her or contain her b/c now the first thing she does is up on the couch to attack the cushions.  Unfortunately I can't find much really to tether her safely too...

I'm afraid if we took away her chew toys it would up her chewing on more inappropriate items - and the majority of feedback I've been given is puppies need toys plain and simple. 

Tonight the SO and I are going to discuss all the information we've been given and pick and choose what feels like a "right" method and stick with it.  What it will be I don't know....but something that I can live with and not feel sick to my stomach about. 
 

NILIF is my bible but a puppy needs to develop what is expected of him before you can adhere him completely to NILIF.

 For example you cant make the pup sit and wait for food until he knows what sit/stay. You can apply that to treats also!

 I know you have a testy puppy so regarding the toy issues I would suggest keeping high prized toys away for special treats. Just because you have a couple lying around dosnt mean you cant make a reward out of ones you keep put away. Maybe keep all the teether plastic ones laying about and the fun squeaky ones for reward.

I'm afraid if we took away her chew toys it would up her chewing on more inappropriate items - and the majority of feedback I've been given is puppies need toys plain and simple. 

not true, and in fact leaving chew toys lying around is more likely to lead to chewing on inappropriate items- because to a puppy everything is a chew toy unless proven otherwise- how does the puppy ever learn to distinguish between shoes on the floor and chew toy on the floor? You want to teach the puppy good chew habits from day one. Simplest way to teach puppy good chew habits is to only allow the puppy to chew in a structured way under your control. You decide it's chew time, you take puppy to the chew location, have the puppy sit or down, and you offer the chew item. We use "chew mats" - each dog has a personal mat, and only items on the mat may be chewed, and they may only be chewed while the dog is on the mat. You could use a crate- pup only chews while in the crate. Very simple, clear rules dogs rapidly come to understand that prevent so much destructive behavior.  

mudpuppy

We use "chew mats" - each dog has a personal mat, and only items on the mat may be chewed, and they may only be chewed while the dog is on the mat. You could use a crate- pup only chews while in the crate. Very simple, clear rules dogs rapidly come to understand that prevent so much destructive behavior.  

This is a great idea and one we actually followed albeit inadvertantly.... we always gave prized items in crates so that the dogs felt "safe" while eating and no one tried to "nick" anyone elses.  After a time we could leave the doors open and they would not try to invade one anothers space or nick each others treats.  It was just one way to prevent tension or confrontation.  One dog is half staffy and we didn't know when we got her how much of her personality would end up being "staffy" - as it is she is very relaxed and friendly around other dogs so perhaps we didn't "need" to take those precautions.... but she is certainly not a destructive dog.  We've had a few isolated incidents with her while I was pregnant (most involving baby items actually, and one involving a tea towel) but on the whole she has been very trustworthy in that regard.

Bonita of Bwana

Okay I admit it I AM  THE ORIGINAL CYBER TROGLODYTE    WTH is   NILF  so far I am guessing" Non illeagal life form "is most likely not what you mean...... yeah I  know double negative but sheesh I am guessing here .... HELP??
Bonita of Bwana

Be glad you don't what it means because then you can't practice it.  It is basically depriving the dog of its basic necessities until the dog succumbs to the human's bidding.  Some dogs can cope with this treatment while for others it creates behavior problems.

DPU

Be glad you don't what it means because then you can't practice it.  It is basically depriving the dog of its basic necessities until the dog succumbs to the human's bidding.  Some dogs can cope with this treatment while for others it creates behavior problems.

Do we have to have this silly argument again? Actually, Bonita, it has nothing to do with depriving the dog of anything, and its purpose is to solve behavior problems, not create them. It stands for Nothing In Life Is Free, and here's a link for you: http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

I'm just going to say that NILIF does not deprive the dog of it's basic needs at all.  And, the post above implying that it's some type of harsh or mean treatment is incorrect.  It's extremely easy for the dog to do even if it only knows a simple sit.  If anyone is interested in this please research it further and then decide if it's right for you--but the comment above is completely misleading.

In fact the "N" in NILIF is misleading.  It stands for "NOTHING" and I've got to say I don't adhere to that rigidly.  Water is free for my dogs for example.  And I certainly wouldn't "starve" them if they refuse to do my bidding which seems to be DPU's impression.

"Almost Nothing In Life Is Free, But Most Things Are Pretty Cheap If Not A Downright Bargain" is more accurate but less snappy.

Chuffy

In fact the "N" in NILIF is misleading.  It stands for "NOTHING" and I've got to say I don't adhere to that rigidly.  Water is free for my dogs for example.  And I certainly wouldn't "starve" them if they refuse to do my bidding which seems to be DPU's impression.

"Almost Nothing In Life Is Free, But Most Things Are Pretty Cheap If Not A Downright Bargain" is more accurate but less snappy.

True, my dogs have free access to water, there are toys and bones laying all over the floor (we require them to sit and make eye contact before playing with US however), and I freely offer attention and affection most of the time, even *gasp!* on demand sometimes, unless they're being truly obnoxious. Funny thing, it would be impossible to starve my dogs because they never refuse to do my bidding at mealtime. They understand what the house rules are, and readily, happily, and automatically comply. I figure waiting for them to lay on the floor, for me to put down the bowls, and then make eye contact until released, takes less than 10 seconds longer than letting them dive on the food bowl the second it hits the floor. Sometimes less than 5 seconds. Oh, the abuse!

DPU is just pulling our chains.

DPU

Be glad you don't what it means because then you can't practice it.  It is basically depriving the dog of its basic necessities until the dog succumbs to the human's bidding.  Some dogs can cope with this treatment while for others it creates behavior problems.

What you are describing is not NILIF.  If a dog is being deprived of necessities, that is A Really Bad Way To Train at best, neglect/abuse at worst.

You seem to constantly overlook an important concept - that the human must always setup the dog for success.  That is not unique to NILIF, but definitely a large component of NILIF being successful.  If the dog is being deprived, it has nothing to do with the method used, it means the owner's expectations are too high.  

I've used NILIF about 50/50 thus far (basically, my dogs earn privileges based on good manners and patterns of good behavior, but I don't usually require specific routines or commands), but now we are doing stricter NILIF with Coke.  Guess what?  He is still eating his meal at the same time, still playing with the same toys at the same frequency, still getting up on the bed and the couch, still licking my dinner plate.  Why?  Because I set goals for him in baby steps, things that might push the envelop a little bit, but things I know he is capable of achieving.  He has not been deprived of anything.  In fact, he has already earned some new things.

Chuffy

And I certainly wouldn't "starve" them if they refuse to do my bidding which seems to be DPU's impression.

My impression and your impression is inconsequential.  It is the dog's acumen of what is taking place that is relevant.  NILIF uses only one quadrant of the Operant Conditioning - Negative Punishment.  NegP is taking away something good from the environment until the desired behavior is presented.  By the dog not getting what it wants, the dog will experience anxiety and frustration.  These emotions will trigger and release stress hormones that will be present in the dog for days.  Stress hormones serves to help the dog cope.  Sort of like a suit of armor to  protect against the frustration caused by the situation.  A rigid NILIF program and a repeated barrage of being in frustrating situations can cause these stress hormones to be released too often and possibly making the dog go into a chronic state of fear that will be exhibited with other problem behaviors.  As I said, some dogs can handle this but for others dogs it will be a nightmare.

Liesje

What you are describing is not NILIF.  If a dog is being deprived of necessities, that is A Really Bad Way To Train at best, neglect/abuse at worst.

No to you, what I describe is NILIF and it does deprive/withhold the dog's basic necessities.  Keeping the backdoor closed until the dog is calmly sitting at the backdoor is an example.  The dog has to pee for Petey sake, how cruel is that.  The dog does not eat until the dog is calm when the dish is presented.  The dog is hungary for crying out loud.  In those two examples, the owner should explore why the dog is in an excited state.  To me, those problem behavior are fixable by maybe feeding the dog more often or letting the dog out more often.  I even think I read one poster in this thread give their dog the silent treatment for days because the dog needed an attitude adjustment.  Depriving companionship and love, I don't know what to say to that.  I know what NILIF means and introducing other more humane training methods into the mix, does not change its meaning.