NILIF and pack leadership

I agree with the statement "I don't see any beneficial application of NILIF for timid or panicky dogs" provided "or" is a logical AND.  I think NILIF is ok to use on a timid dog because the dog is working on its coping process while the conjunction of timid and panicky will result in flight or fight (or is logical).

I think NILIF would be extremely GOOD for a timid or panicky dog. NILIF explains the rules to a dog in a quiet, pleasant, non-confrontational way. Dogs that are scared LOVE consistency. They LOVE finally figuring out what the rules are. They LOVE learning that they are in control- with NILIF it's always their choice. A dog on a consistent NILIF program will develop confidence and become much less timid and panicky.

Call it what you want Mudpuppy, but the above things I've mentioned, ie waiting for food, not rushing through a door....has been the key to peace and safety in my house. I dont know how making a dog keep a distance away and stay in a sit would be considered voo-doo? I preffer to not have my two dogs jumping and wiggling all around while I'm trying to juggel bowls.

Nor do I see how training a dog to wait before jumping out a car door or through a gate could be considered "dominance" its safety.

I don't know how well my household would be ran without any rules. So answer me this......

NILIF states that when its time to go on a walk your dog should sit nicely so you can apply the leash, if at anytime your dog gets jumpy put the dog back into a sit/stay and reward with leash and the walk when he is composed.......how on earth can that be constructed as voo-doo dominance? Wouldnt that be the same as asking your child ot put his/her shoes on before running out the door?

mudpuppy

This is "dominance voodoo rituals"

LOL That's a good one!

mudpuppy

if you want this from me, you have to do that.

mudpuppy

I think NILIF would be extremely GOOD for a timid or panicky dog.

I agree with this post 100%. A timid dog, when taught the rules, feels more secure and confident, knowing what's expected. 

FourIsCompany

mudpuppy

I think NILIF would be extremely GOOD for a timid or panicky dog.

I agree with this post 100%. A timid dog, when taught the rules, feels more secure and confident, knowing what's expected.

I agree here, too. If the dog knows the way to get what he/she wants, anxiety would be reduced. And we shouldn't confuse anxiety with excitement or exuberance.

ron2

FourIsCompany

mudpuppy

I think NILIF would be extremely GOOD for a timid or panicky dog.

I agree with this post 100%. A timid dog, when taught the rules, feels more secure and confident, knowing what's expected.

I agree here, too. If the dog knows the way to get what he/she wants, anxiety would be reduced. And we shouldn't confuse anxiety with excitement or exuberance.

Nope, get yourself a timid dog and the dog's reaction to conflict choices is panick.  The stress created by NILIF will be very visible unless of course denial is still maintained.  Just as in Pushing Excercise there are prerequisites and dog must have some assemblance of confidence and needs to have develop the self coping mechanism when stress is introduced. 

I'm still not getting this conflict the dog has.  There is not conflict choice, the command needs to be done, period.  If not, walk away.  Isn't the alternative of letting them do whatever causing the stress and conflict, . . .do I sit, do I jump up, what does he want me to do???  How does a dog develop confidence if he doesn't know what's expected of him.  My dog is confident because she knows she is doing the right things that not only please me but get her what she wants most. 

Please explain if possible.  Thanks.

I don't get it either.  Kenya was very very timid/shy/skittish/scared when I got her.  She would jump away and tuck her tail if I so much as stepped on a twig or a dry leaf and made a tiny cracking noise.  She was afraid of new sounds, movements, people, other animals, you name it. Now, largely through structure and routine, her confidence has come a long way.  She has her CGC, rally title, passed therapy dog training, struts with confidence in public, is now indifferent to the chaos and lack of personal space in dog show/trial environments, initiates greetings with new dogs and people, and is unaffected by most odd noises and movements (just tonight I was trying to fix a vacuum and when I tested it it made the most HORRIFIC noise, I jumped and wanted to scream but Kenya was lying 2 feet from the vacuum and didn't bat an eye).

I guess I don't see where I was doing things wrong... 

Perhaps the concept of choice is where we are getting hung up?  For me, NILIF is NOT choice.  I agree that in many situations, choice (or rather, uncertainty) is stressful for the timid dog.  NILIF removes forcing the dog to have to chose.  Kenya does not chose when she eats, where she eats, how much she eats, when she goes out, where she is allowed to run (we do not have a fenced yard), etc.  I do all these things at the same time, same place, same amount every day.  She is dependent on me for these basic needs so there's no reason she should have to chose what/how/when/where/why.  That is my responsibility to provide them for her on a consistent basis.

willowchow

Personally, I wouldn't use NILIF at least until I had a good strong relationship with an animal.

It's supposed to be used to help develop a strong relationship with the animal.   

 

Be that as it may, I prefer different methods for building a relationship. That's not to say NILIF has no place in my life. It certainly does. Even with a puppy when they bite too hard and you withdraw, that's sort of NILIF. And even when I'm just starting out with an animal, there are some things that just have to happen whether they like it or not.

I do think that if you're not careful some applications of NILIF could be too much too soon. Yes, dogs like to know the rules, but that doesn't mean you can't baby them into it if they're timid. I would tend to deal with a timid dog using as much classical conditioning as I could, because that's the way I got through to Kit about things like not biting or not waking me up every morning at 3am or leaving power cord hotspots alone.

I am quite willing to accept that there is stress or anxiety involved with NILIF in certain circumstances, especially if you were a "sit or I walk away" kind of person and the dog had some reason for not sitting. As I said before, though, I think in most cases what stress there may have been vanishes the moment the dog gets what it wants. To me that is stress that does not damage relationships and it's nothing to worry about. We can't baby dogs along so much that they never feel stress. It's inevitable and probably healthy. The trick is keeping the stress below that threshold where the stress lingers after the cause is removed.

In my use of NILIF, there is a choice. If my dog knows the command and won't do it, she still gets what she wants eventually. She just has to wait for a bit. Funnily enough, my dog usually chooses the quickest path to getting what she wants, which she has learnt is the one where she does what I asked of her. If she doesn't pick that path, she didn't want it very much. That's the beauty of an enthusiastic animal!
 

willowchow

Personally, I wouldn't use NILIF at least until I had a good strong relationship with an animal.

I totally agree with that.....that is so important with the rescues I have dealt with......

corvus

In my use of NILIF, there is a choice. If my dog knows the command and won't do it, she still gets what she wants eventually.

To me, that is not NILIF.  That's SILIF. LOL Some things in life, are, in fact, free. If you're willing to wait for them.

corvus

I am quite willing to accept that there is stress or anxiety involved with NILIF in certain circumstances, especially if you were a "sit or I walk away" kind of person and the dog had some reason for not sitting.

These are special circumstances. And I think we're talking about "normal" circumstances, for the most part. Of course, if you ask a lame dog to run, or an untrained dog to sit for its food,  that's going to cause unnecessary stress.

FourIsCompany

These are special circumstances. And I think we're talking about "normal" circumstances, for the most part. Of course, if you ask a lame dog to run, or an untrained dog to sit for its food,  that's going to cause unnecessary stress.

And these "special circumstances" should not be dismissed.  Stress is present in NILIF and those applying it should be aware of it.  Each dog handle stress differently and the "normal" ones work through it pretty fast but some don't and the owner should not push the dog beyond its capability....because the result can be an unexpected bite. 

In the example above, creating unnecessary stress of having a lame dog run or an untrained dog sit for its for food is a good example of having key information before asking or forcing a dog to comply.  Unfortunately, with NILIF and other training methods, one does not know the before hand information and when it is encountered the dog owner gets blamed for not doing it right and the dog then suffers unnecessary stress.  At least with the simple knowledge that NILIF includes stress and any dog may not be able to handle it will cause the owner to stop doing the exercise before something bad happens. 

 To me, I need to understand how a training method or exercise works and the best education is when applied to special dogs.   

In my use of NILIF, there is a choice. If my dog knows the command and won't do it, she still gets what she wants eventually.

but the whole key to NILIF is you DON'T give commands. The dog OFFERS an acceptable behavior and in response you OFFER the dog something the dog wants. There is NO STRESS for the dog because the DOG is in control of what happens. You want the DOG to learn how to think and to control himself, not just respond to commands you issue.

You don't start out demanding a perfect tucked sit or you don't get supper, that would be ridiculous. You wait for the slightest sign of improvement-  let's say you bring the dog home from the shelter and the dog, scared, goes and hides in the corner. It would the height of cruelty to think you're not going to feed the dog until the dog comes out and offers a tucked sit in the kitchen doorway. That's your FINISHED behavior, it's not where you start.

DPU

And these "special circumstances" should not be dismissed.  Stress is present in NILIF and those applying it should be aware of it.  Each dog handle stress differently and the "normal" ones work through it pretty fast but some don't and the owner should not push the dog beyond its capability....because the result can be an unexpected bite. 

In the example above, creating unnecessary stress of having a lame dog run or an untrained dog sit for its for food is a good example of having key information before asking or forcing a dog to comply.  Unfortunately, with NILIF and other training methods, one does not know the before hand information and when it is encountered the dog owner gets blamed for not doing it right and the dog then suffers unnecessary stress.  At least with the simple knowledge that NILIF includes stress and any dog may not be able to handle it will cause the owner to stop doing the exercise before something bad happens. 

 To me, I need to understand how a training method or exercise works and the best education is when applied to special dogs.   

 
Again, this depends on how you view NILIF.  To me NILIF is not a "training method" and I do not use it as such, so when I use it to form a communicative bond with a timid dog I get different results than I would if I were imposing it as a training method on a physically disabled dog.  I don't use NILIF for commands and training, just for basic day-to-day activities that require a relationship with the dog and handler (feeding, pottying, interactions like playing, petting on the couch, etc).

I don't know who to credit for the phrase "dominance voodoo rituals". I heard it somewhere, and it just stuck in my head. NILIF and these voodoo rituals often get mixed up. They are very different, although some of the dominance voodoo rituals have a beneficial effect on dog behavior because it achieves some of the same goals as NILIF, namely, teaching the dog self-control. Common dominance voodoo rituals are insisting the human always go out the door before the dog goes out, eating before the dog eats, making the dog sit at a distance from food before being allowed to eat, etc. Very similar to NILIF, but dominance rituals differ in that the dog is compelled to perform the behaviors and the intent is to convince the dog that the owner has all the power. NILIF is totally different in intent- the dog always has a choice to not-comply, and the intent is produce a dog and human who live in harmony by common well-defined rules of behavior and don't think about who has the power because they both share it.

mudpuppy

The dog OFFERS an acceptable behavior and in response you OFFER the dog something the dog wants. There is NO STRESS for the dog because the DOG is in control of what happens. You want the DOG to learn how to think and to control himself, not just respond to commands you issue.

Once again Muddpuppy jumps way ahead and SKIPS the beginning.  Why is that?  Before the dog "OFFER"s or figures out that the dog has to "OFFER" something else, whats going on?  Hasn't excitement and anticpation behavior turned to stress behavior before something acceptable to the human is presented?