NILIF and pack leadership

DPU

And these "special circumstances" should not be dismissed.

 

I don't mean to dismiss them.

DPU

Stress is present in NILIF

 

Stress is present without NILIF, too. Stress is present in LIFE.

DPU

the owner should not push the dog beyond its capability

 

The owner should NEVER push a dog beyond its capability.  

DPU

Unfortunately, with NILIF and other training methods, one does not know the before hand information

That's not true. You don't jump in with a dog you don't know and expect it to perform something that it's unfamiliar with. THAT'S not NILIF. That's crazy. That's some sort of voo-doo dominance ritual! LOL (Sorry, mp, I'm not crediting that to you, I just find it a funny phrase.) 

DPU

I need to understand how a training method or exercise works and the best education is when applied to special dogs.

NILIF is NOT a training method. It's more of a structure. Only when the dog is 100% sure of what he is supposed to do should he be required to do it every time. I NEVER have to tell my dogs to sit or wait for their food. I TAUGHT them how to do it, and now they do it automatically. The fact that they won't get their food until they do what they KNOW is expected of them, is NILIF.

Of course people should know how a training method is supposed to be done before they do it. But that has nothing to do with NILIF.

From the NILIF page:

The NILIF program is an accepted standard in dog training/behavior but it is not, and is not intended to be, a substitute for an in-person, professional evaluation of your dog's behavior. This technique is intended for dogs in good health and of sound mind and stable temperament.
...
A shy, timid dog becomes more relaxed knowing that he has nothing to worry about, his owner is in charge of all things.
...
The program is not difficult to put into effect and it's not time consuming if the dog already knows a few basic obedience commands

Read about it. The program (or technique or structure or whatever you want to call it) is NOT to blame if people don't read about how to do it.   Just like the pushing exercise.

 

DPU

Hasn't excitement and anticpation behavior turned to stress behavior before something acceptable to the human is presented?

Excitement and anticipation of what?.... I'm confused as to where stress is coming into the picture.

I'll describe a NILIF-like ritual I use and you can point out where the dog is being stressed...

At 5pm I will go home from work.  I will go inside and set down my things, then call Kenya out.  She will run over to the side of the garage, pee, and run back to the door.  Now I will get Kenya's food bowl, fill it, and feed her.  She will run into her crate b/c that's where she likes to be fed and now it is routine.  I don't give a rat's patoot where she is fed, but she has always gone into the crate (which is propped open). I will set down the bowl and she will eat.  After 10 minutes I will simply take the bowl and put it back in it's place.  This is how it is done every day.  Same time, same place, same amount.  I expect Kenya to do her business and then eat her food; she expects me to take her out and give her the food.  I do not sit around and wait for her to bark and whine at me to take her out or to feed her.  She does not have the freedom to make those choices/demands.  It happens on a schedule and neither of us really think twice about it.  She doesn't have to worry about not getting let out to potty or not getting fed, and I don't have to worry about her having and accident in the house or her being pushy and demanding about being fed.
 

FourIsCompany

That's not true. You don't jump in with a dog you don't know and expect it to perform something that it's unfamiliar with. THAT'S not NILIF. That's crazy. That's some sort of voo-doo dominance ritual! LOL (Sorry, mp, I'm not crediting that to you, I just find it a funny phrase.) 

DPU

I need to understand how a training method or exercise works and the best education is when applied to special dogs.

NILIF is NOT a training method. It's more of a structure. Only when the dog is 100% sure of what he is supposed to do should he be required to do it every time. I NEVER have to tell my dogs to sit or wait for their food. I TAUGHT them how to do it, and now they do it automatically. The fact that they won't get their food until they do what they KNOW is expected of them, is NILIF.

Of course people should know how a training method is supposed to be done before they do it. But that has nothing to do with NILIF.

From the NILIF page:

The NILIF program is an accepted standard in dog training/behavior but it is not, and is not intended to be, a substitute for an in-person, professional evaluation of your dog's behavior. This technique is intended for dogs in good health and of sound mind and stable temperament.
...
A shy, timid dog becomes more relaxed knowing that he has nothing to worry about, his owner is in charge of all things.
...
The program is not difficult to put into effect and it's not time consuming if the dog already knows a few basic obedience commands

4IC, I know you don't realize this but other members do read and examine what they read and then bring forth concerns, experiences, and maybe a different understanding or a different angle to the discussion.  Everyone's comprehensive of what they read may be slightly different.  My purpose is this discussion is to highlight that there are prerequites and the dog owner is not aware of the prerequisites or is not the best judge for determining stable temperament.  Until you try this training method/technique and see how the dog reacts then you know for sure.  So often when a members ask for help on their dog's unacceptable behavior, especially aggression, medical evaluation and then NILIF is suggested.  Nothing is ever mentioned about a stable temperament and my observations and my posting here highlight that.  For the record, I did not use NILIF on Pollyanna, the scared and timid dog.  I just knew it would not work as I think any other normal person would see if they had such a dog in front of them.

Funny 4IC, you left out this prerequisite quote from your reference article.  "Again, a timid dog is going to be stressed by this situation, a pushy dog is going to be difficult to handle. Both of them would prefer to have you in charge."  And again, the dog has to work through this stress in order for the technique to work.  You seem to be like Muddpuppy and forget these little negative details. 

Did you read this article by the Dumb Friends League on NILIF?  http://www.ddfl.org/behavior/nilif.pdf  This is typically how NILIF is represented here and again it say the training method is a confidence builder just like the Pushing exercise.  Why would a dog owner with a scared and timid dog not try it?

double post

DPU

Funny 4IC, you left out this prerequisite quote from your reference article.  "Again, a timid dog is going to be stressed by this situation, a pushy dog is going to be difficult to handle. Both of them would prefer to have you in charge." 

 

I didn't leave anything out. But check out your sentence. YOU left off the first part of the idea. Here's the quote in its entirety:

If he's been getting most of these things for free there is no real reason for him to respect your leadership or your ownership of these things. Again, a timid dog is going to be stressed by this situation, a pushy dog is going to be difficult to handle. Both of them would prefer to have you in charge. 

In other words, a timid dog is stressed by getting everything for free (not knowing the rules, not having the structure laid out for him, not knowing what's expected.) THAT causes stress. NOT NILIF.

DPU

it say the training method is a confidence builder

 

Your source does not call NILIF a training method. It calls it a technique. Training is not mentioned in your article. As long as you think of it as a method for training the dog to do something, you're going to continue to be confused.

But yes, it's builds confidence.

DPU

Why would a dog owner with a scared and timid dog not try it?

I think they should use it, but ONLY after the dog knows the commands.

Liesje

DPU

Hasn't excitement and anticpation behavior turned to stress behavior before something acceptable to the human is presented?

Excitement and anticipation of what?.... I'm confused as to where stress is coming into the picture.

I'll describe a NILIF-like ritual I use and you can point out where the dog is being stressed...

Well established routines are almost never stressful to the dog.  But what you described is the ending and not the beginning and it would be NILIF if there was some type of behavior you wished to changed.

DPU

NILIF is NOT a training method. It's more of a structure. Only when the dog is 100% sure of what he is supposed to do should he be required to do it every time. I NEVER have to tell my dogs to sit or wait for their food. I TAUGHT them how to do it, and now they do it automatically. The fact that they won't get their food until they do what they KNOW is expected of them, is NILIF.

No, that's just teaching them manners. NILIF is, or should be, about re-structuring their social instincts so that they're no longer biting people or other dogs to get what they want. I think a lot of people are mistaking STILAF (Some Things in Life Aren't Free) for NILIF (Nothing in Life Is Free).

DPU

Of course people should know how a training method is supposed to be done before they do it. But that has nothing to do with NILIF.

From the NILIF page: "Again, a timid dog is going to be stressed by this situation, a pushy dog is going to be difficult to handle. Both of them would prefer to have you in charge."  This is typically how NILIF is represented here and again it say the training method is a confidence builder just like the Pushing exercise.  Why would a dog owner with a scared and timid dog not try it?

I disagree vehemently with many of the things in the article linked to above, at least pertaining to the rationale behind the exercises, not necessarily in how they're done. I also have to draw an important distinction between NILIF and the pushing exercise. In my view, neither of these exercises should be thought of as "confidence builders." Yes, the pushing exercise seems to have that effect, but it does so because it increases the dog's drive flow (reduces internal fear-based blockages). If anything NILIF works by reducing, or rather re-directing, drive flow from, "I want/need something and I'm going to get it no matter who I have to hurt," to "I can't get anything in life without it coming to me through you." Note that the dog needs to know that he can't get ANYTHING in life without it coming through his owner. That's what NILIF means. It's not a matter of teaching a dog to sit and wait for his dinner bowl. That's just "manners." NILIF is about putting a dog's social instincts back into balance. Remember, the social instinct in dogs and wolves (and to some extent in coyotes and other canines) is a remarkable anomaly in nature. It puts the "selfish" needs of the individual members of the group on the back burner so that the needs of the group as a whole can be realized. NILIF reacquaints an unbalanced, overly "selfish" dog with this noble birthright.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

LCK 

FourIsCompany

If he's been getting most of these things for free there is no real reason for him to respect your leadership or your ownership of these things. Again, a timid dog is going to be stressed by this situation, a pushy dog is going to be difficult to handle. Both of them would prefer to have you in charge. 

In other words, a timid dog is stressed by getting everything for free (not knowing the rules, not having the structure laid out for him, not knowing what's expected.) THAT causes stress. NOT NILIF.

Wow, I did not know that the only cause of a dog with a scared and timid temperament is that the dog got everything for free.  Couldn't possibly have anything to do with abuse, neglect, malnutrion, or just plain old isolation.  I'm going to have to restrict my reading.

FourIsCompany

Your source does not call NILIF a training method. It calls it a technique. Training is not mentioned in your article. As long as you think of it as a method for training the dog to do something, you're going to continue to be confused.

Your reference article says "The NILIF program is an accepted standard in dog training/behavior".  I am not confused at all.

FourIsCompany

I think they should use it, but ONLY after the dog knows the commands.

Quite a prerequisite! But, you seem to ignore the medical evaluation and the stable temperament.

DPU

Well established routines are almost never stressful to the dog.  But what you described is the ending and not the beginning and it would be NILIF if there was some type of behavior you wished to changed.

 

I never waited for any unwanted behavior to develop or present itself, we simply established a routine starting with Day 1 she came home.  I don't think the dog has to be doing unwanted behaviors for NILIF to be used or successful.  There are plenty of dogs in the world that are well-adjusted and well-mannered because of clear rules, predictable schedules, etc that were set in place before the dog was given the freedom to develop unwanted behaviors or anxiety due to stress.

DPU--Honestly, you do not have a good understanding of the point of NILIF.  It works the best for dogs with difficult temperments.  And, OBVIOUSLY if the dog is sick, disabled or for whatever reason cannot do a command, you don't have it do that one. 

And as far as knowing commands, all the dog needs to do this is ONE command.  Do they know sit??  They can use this method. 

Again, what do you do with your dogs?  I'm envisioning they all get to do whatever they want because asking them to do anything will cause them too much stress. 

Liesje

I never waited for any unwanted behavior to develop or present itself, we simply established a routine starting with Day 1 she came home.  I don't think the dog has to be doing unwanted behaviors for NILIF to be used or successful.  There are plenty of dogs in the world that are well-adjusted and well-mannered because of clear rules, predictable schedules, etc that were set in place before the dog was given the freedom to develop unwanted behaviors or anxiety due to stress.

I think you are blurring the NILIF training method with the dog's want for a stable and structure environment.  I think the reason I am successful with taking in "issue" dogs, such as aggression, SA, scared, etc. is because I have a stable pack and a routine in place for all of us to live together.  From my role as caretaker, the new foster immediately gets that I am the source of the two of most important thing it wants, feeding and outside time.  That seems to be enough for the dog to give me respect.  The structure, discipline, and a balanced state of mind comes from the foster interacting with the pack.  The other dogs will discipline, isolate, and show by example good behavior.  For example, the other dogs will play together and if the new foster doesn't play nice, the play stops or the other dogs do another game.  My role is to observe and intercede if bad behavior escales.  I really don't care if the dog knows all the basic obedience command.  As long as the dog is well-mannered.  Remember, my Petro the Great Dane is only trained in the COME command.  He is pretty laid back and accomodating.

I believe the only time I used NILIF is on the true SA hound for his excited and uncontrollable behavior when I arrived home from my day.  I clicked to calm, that is I waited for a brief calm moment during the chaos and then rewarded with food.  Eventually the calm period were extended and the reward became opening the gate to his kennel.

What you described at the end of that last post is not NILIF. 

willowchow

DPU--Honestly, you do not have a good understanding of the point of NILIF.  It works the best for dogs with difficult temperments. 

Shall I send Pollyanna to your home so that she may help you understand the point of NILIF. 

Sure, she's welcome--and send Paganini with her!!

willowchow

What you described at the end of that last post is not NILIF. 

Now I don't understand you.  I trained the hound to be calm in his kennel whenever I am present and reinforced the behavior with food.  Isn't this to the liking of teaching the dog 'sit'?  I stopped the food reward, which should have diminished the reinforced behavior and applied NILIF by waiting for the dog to offer the calm behavior before opening the gate.  The dog had to be ready for this but I would not know for sure until I tried it, jumping in.  This worked and I believe that if I only applied NILIF and not teach the dog calm, the dog's unstable state of mind would have escalated.